# "Those who play the identity politics game..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969 "2017-01-12T17:18:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/221 "2017-01-19T16:40:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Leaving aside other aspects of this post, it’s worth noting that there’s a philosophical question here as to what counts as benefiting from race. In the parenthetical comment, you say “_if you were black you’d probably be less likely to be friends/family with people with beneficial connections and influence_”. Let’s assume that’s true. Is this relevant to anything, and does this count as benefiting from being white? > > Any given white person or black person has whatever friends/family they have. I would consider being more likely to have them if you’re a certain ethnicity to be nothing more than a statistical fact about the entire group, but is irrelevant to the individual. You don’t get something from nothing (quantum physics aside). Ethnicity may or may not be an advantage to a given individual if you cherry pick the individual. But some individuals must have a quantifiable advantage/disadvantage due to their ethnicity. Else, where do the statistically significant differences come from? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As an example, suppose a black person is more likely to have whatever qualities it is that enable them to play in the NBA. Does this mean that an individual black NBA player has benefited from being black? Seems illogical to me. Why is that illogical? Given the relative lack of variety (opportunity?) of sports afforded black kids in inner cities, surely the NBA player had the advantage of developing a basketball skill set as opposed to say, rowing or fencing. Doesn’t environment have a heavy influence on outcomes? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you look at blacks and whites as groups, then you can say that the white group on the whole benefits from having, collectively, more connections and influence than the black group. But each individual doesn’t benefit from “being white”. True. It’s understood that statistics don’t tell you very much about any single individual. But it doesn’t follow that no white individual benefits from being white. A statistically significant number must. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/222 "2017-01-19T16:47:56Z")
A white person born with connections is not benefitting from being white. They’re benefitting from their connections. The fact that more or fewer people of the same ethnicity have or don’t have connections has nothing to do with the fact that this particular guy has or doesn’t have connections. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/223 "2017-01-19T16:56:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What do you think it means to be “guilty” of something? We seem to be using the same word to mean different things. What do YOU think it means, since you think you’re not guilty of benefiting from privilege by gaining benefit from privilege? I think this falls quite squarely into “justly subject to a certain accusation or penalty; culpable:” [GUILTY Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/guilty) . > [@](#): > > I think it’d be nonsensical to say someone was “guilty” of being tall, or left-handed, yet that’s the same sense in which you’re saying people are “guilty” of being white, in a culture that privileges whiteness. Again, you seem to expect me to take the opposite of my position. I think that the whole concept of ‘privilege’, as it’s used in ‘check your privilege’ is nonsensical, and that the arguments surrounding it are filled with nonsense. Arguing that a part of the concept as it’s used is nonsensical is SUPPORT for what I’m saying, not a contradiction of it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/224 "2017-01-19T17:02:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > A white person born with connections is not benefitting from being white. They’re benefitting from their connections. > > The fact that more or fewer people of the same ethnicity have or don’t have connections has nothing to do with the fact that this particular guy has or doesn’t have connections. In a post-racial society where bias no longer exists. But not in the world in which we live today. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/225 "2017-01-19T17:04:28Z")
Bias is a separate issue. I wasn’t commenting about bias. I was commenting about being born with connections. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/226 "2017-01-19T17:09:12Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > What do YOU think it means, since you think you’re not guilty of benefiting from privilege by gaining benefit from privilege? I think this falls quite squarely into “justly subject to a certain accusation or penalty; culpable:” [GUILTY Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/guilty) . The linked definition is fine, and refers to actions taken, and not applicable to immutable characteristics. > [@](#): > > Again, you seem to expect me to take the opposite of my position. I think that the whole concept of ‘privilege’, as it’s used in ‘check your privilege’ is nonsensical, and that the arguments surrounding it are filled with nonsense. Arguing that a part of the concept as it’s used is nonsensical is SUPPORT for what I’m saying, not a contradiction of it. I’ve only seen it used by you, someone who rejects the concept entirely. It appears to be straw version of the actual concept of privilege, using a loaded, prejudicial word like “guilty” to discredit an idea you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/227 "2017-01-19T17:33:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Bias is a separate issue. I wasn’t commenting about bias. I was commenting about being born with connections. Connections being linked to a privilege of a kind. Say, economic, or political, or some other advantage available to some and not others? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/228 "2017-01-19T17:34:55Z")
IME, “white privilege” is often most pronounced in countries where white people are a minority, not a majority. For instance, I’ve seen white people get what was almost celebrity-like treatment in Asia when they were tourists or visitors. Some white people also had things handed to them on a plate, so to speak, in a way that locals wouldn’t have had. You wouldn’t get that kind of white privilege in America because you don’t treat Race X as a celebrity when Race X is the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/229 "2017-01-19T17:47:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Connections being linked to a privilege of a kind. Say, economic, or political, or some other advantage available to some and not others? Right. But it’s not for being white. It’s for a specific connection to specific people. If your father is a billionaire, then you have advantages in life. But if you’re a white guy whose father is a billionaire, you’re not getting anything for “being white”. You’re getting something because your connection to one specific billionaire. The fact that your father is more likely to be a billionaire if you’re white is not a race advantage even if you’re the lucky white guy in that situation. This is going round and round here. If people can’t understand this, then I’m going to drop it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/230 "2017-01-19T17:49:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. But it’s not for being white. It’s for a specific connection to specific people. > > If your father is a billionaire, then you have advantages in life. But if you’re a white guy whose father is a billionaire, you’re not getting anything for “being white”. You’re getting something because your connection to one specific billionaire. > > The fact that your father is more likely to be a billionaire if you’re white is not a race advantage even if you’re the lucky white guy in that situation. > > This is going round and round here. If people can’t understand this, then I’m going to drop it. I think I understand it, but I don’t see what the point is or how it conflicts with anything in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/231 "2017-01-19T17:51:50Z")
Because you cited (post #206) a higher likelihood of having connections as an example of how you may have _““gained an advantage at the expense of others” due to your whiteness”_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/232 "2017-01-19T18:09:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Because you cited (post #206) a higher likelihood of having connections as an example of how you may have _““gained an advantage at the expense of others” due to your whiteness”_. Okay, I get the quibble. That particular advantage comes from factors somewhat related to whiteness (i.e. the wealth and influence of one’s friends and family), but not the whiteness itself. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/233 "2017-01-19T18:10:22Z")
Forget it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/234 "2017-01-19T18:28:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Forget it. Forget that your quibble was correct? But you were right on this. Sometimes I sense that you might be hostile to whatever I post, even when I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/235 "2017-01-19T18:30:50Z")
I don’t think it was a quibble and suspect you didn’t understand what I wrote. But I don’t think I’m up for an argument about it at this time. No worries. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/236 "2017-01-19T18:31:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think it was a quibble and suspect you didn’t understand what I wrote. But I don’t think I’m up for an argument about it at this time. > > No worries. 🙂 Okay, sorry for calling it a quibble. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/237 "2017-01-20T07:50:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In a post-racial society where bias no longer exists. But not in the world in which we live today. I think one thing can be stated with certainty, identity politics will never lead to a post-racial society. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/238 "2017-01-20T09:07:14Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I think one thing can be stated with certainty, identity politics will never lead to a post-racial society. Neither will “colorblindness”. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/239 "2017-01-20T09:27:20Z")
Especially when it’s often used to say, “you’re not getting lynched in the streets, so what kind of problems can you possibly have? {blank}-ism isn’t an issue anymore. Just sit down and shut up so I can go back to ignoring you.” ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/240 "2017-01-20T10:29:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > IME, “white privilege” is often most pronounced in countries where white people are a minority, not a majority. For instance, I’ve seen white people get what was almost celebrity-like treatment in Asia when they were tourists or visitors. Some white people also had things handed to them on a plate, so to speak, in a way that locals wouldn’t have had. You wouldn’t get that kind of white privilege in America because you don’t treat Race X as a celebrity when Race X is the majority. Yeah. I have seen people lining up for photographs with random black people in the Far East (an area not famed for its racial tolerance). Thats exoticness, not privilege. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=13)