# "Those who play the identity politics game..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969 "2017-01-12T17:18:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/241 "2017-01-20T14:16:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The linked definition is fine, and refers to actions taken, and not applicable to immutable characteristics. No, it doesn’t. My cite is the linked definition which doesn’t include the caveat you’ve decided to add to it. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/242 "2017-01-20T14:17:10Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I think one thing can be stated with certainty, identity politics will never lead to a post-racial society. I’m not sure that anyone thinks otherwise. Identity politics seems to be about bringing issues to light that have to do with identity within the context of the current state of our society. Fixing these issues is a separate matter. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/243 "2017-01-20T17:41:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think comparing privilege from wealth to privilege from these other characteristics is useful. How isn’t it? The unemployed white blue collar is on the average better off that the equally unemployed black blue collar. Maybe he realizes it, maybe not. But in any case he’s going to watch TV and see some Uni professor, vastly more privileged than himself (regardless of this person’s skin colour), lecturing him about “white privilege”. Why on earth wouldn’t he be royally pissed off? The issue is the emphasis given to “white” or “male” privilege, while socio-economic condition, for instance, has a massive impact on whether someone is privileged or not. Once again, this unemployed blue collar might be better off than his black ex-coworker. But he’s still at the lowest of the totem pole. Ignoring this and telling him about how privileged he is is really totally out of place. A bit like going to a burial and telling the mourning family that they should feel lucky because some other family’s relative died from a much more painful disease. As long as two college students in a comparable situation mention that the white one is more privileged than the black one, that’s mostly fine, I guess, but when they begin to spread the word to the wider world and begin to lecture people who are in fact much less privileged than themselves by any serious standard, I see a big issue. “Check your privileges” indeed. But check _all_ your privileges, not just the ones that are trendy, or just the ones that make you feel that you’re amongst the “oppressed” when you’re in fact, if anything, amongst the “oppressors”. And there are others inborn “privileges”. Being born in a wealthy country. Being in good health. Or being rather smart. People don’t decide to be not that bright, and despite it seriously impacting their prospects of success in life, nobody is shedding many tears for IQ-disadvantaged people. Seriously, if you compare being born a gay black female in an upper class family and a straight white male in an impoverished family, who do you think has the best prospect at a successful life? And as result, who should “check one’s privileges”? I’ve no doubt it’s the first one and think as a result that her saying that white straight men should check their privileges is bordering the offensive. Not even bordering, in fact. I think it’s plain offensive. Now, this privileged black gay woman isn’t going to compare herself with impoverished white straight man. She’s going to compare herself with equally privileged straight white men working, say, in the same audit company. Then, she might find herself at a disadvantage, and might rightfully complain about _this specific unequality_, _her specific situation_. But belonging to the upper crust, she would be rather well inspired to not lecture the really unprivileged about their supposed privileges. Of course, given that her specific issue is in fact systemic, there has to be some people reminding everybody that white people generally have it better, _all other things being equal_. But when it becomes trendy to repeat this point ad nauseam, while mostly ignoring the other massive sources of inequity, and especially to express it in such a dismissive way as “check your privileges”, one shouldn’t be surprised when the really unprivileged you’re pointing your finger at just because they’re of the wrong (or right) race and gender are mightily pissed off. Pretty much nobody who appears in the media, and even IME pretty much nobody who maintains an internet blog is in any position to use an expression such as “check your privileges”. Bunch of lucky people who should instead count their blessings, and if they really want to address this issue should avoid being dismissive and offensive while doing so, and remind themselves that it’s only _one_ issue amongst many that people have to face. In fact I suspect that few people on this message board are in a position that should make them feel entitled to say “check your privileges” to a whole group of people, because they’re likely to be themselves more privileged than the majority of this group. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/244 "2017-01-20T18:37:51Z")
**clairobscur** , well said. And, if I might add to your excellent post; campaigners on social and cultural issues tend to be disproportionately from upper and middle classes; which leads to a situation where a well-off individual is accusing a poor one of being privileged. In the same way, a gay person from a poor family and from a working class/poor station is not going to be necessarily see their sexual preference as being the cause of their problems and advances in gay rights as bringing relief to them. Gay marriage ain’t much use when you have no prospects and little chance of actually ever getting married or having a long term relationship. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/245 "2017-01-20T18:40:49Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > **clairobscur** , well said. And, if I might add to your excellent post; campaigners on social and cultural issues tend to be disproportionately from upper and middle classes; which leads to a situation where a well-off individual is accusing a poor one of being privileged. That’s usually because you won’t listen to the poor one, and just dismiss their concerns as whining. It upsets you when people that are well-off, that you cannot simply ignore and brush off, express the concerns they have about those to whom you refuse to listen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/246 "2017-01-20T18:50:46Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > How isn’t it? The unemployed white blue collar is on the average better off that the equally unemployed black blue collar. Maybe he realizes it, maybe not. But in any case he’s going to watch TV and see some Uni professor, vastly more privileged than himself (regardless of this person’s skin colour), lecturing him about “white privilege”. Why on earth wouldn’t he be royally pissed off? > > The issue is the emphasis given to “white” or “male” privilege, while socio-economic condition, for instance, has a massive impact on whether someone is privileged or not. Once again, this unemployed blue collar might be better off than his black ex-coworker. But he’s still at the lowest of the totem pole. Ignoring this and telling him about how privileged he is is really totally out of place. A bit like going to a burial and telling the mourning family that they should feel lucky because some other family’s relative died from a much more painful disease. > > As long as two college students in a comparable situation mention that the white one is more privileged than the black one, that’s mostly fine, I guess, but when they begin to spread the word to the wider world and begin to lecture people who are in fact much less privileged than themselves by any serious standard, I see a big issue. “Check your privileges” indeed. But check _all_ your privileges, not just the ones that are trendy, or just the ones that make you feel that you’re amongst the “oppressed” when you’re in fact, if anything, amongst the “oppressors”. > > And there are others inborn “privileges”. Being born in a wealthy country. Being in good health. Or being rather smart. People don’t decide to be not that bright, and despite it seriously impacting their prospects of success in life, nobody is shedding many tears for IQ-disadvantaged people. > > Seriously, if you compare being born a gay black female in an upper class family and a straight white male in an impoverished family, who do you think has the best prospect at a successful life? And as result, who should “check one’s privileges”? I’ve no doubt it’s the first one and think as a result that her saying that white straight men should check their privileges is bordering the offensive. Not even bordering, in fact. I think it’s plain offensive. > > Now, this privileged black gay woman isn’t going to compare herself with impoverished white straight man. She’s going to compare herself with equally privileged straight white men working, say, in the same audit company. Then, she might find herself at a disadvantage, and might rightfully complain about _this specific unequality_, _her specific situation_. But belonging to the upper crust, she would be rather well inspired to not lecture the really unprivileged about their supposed privileges. > > Of course, given that her specific issue is in fact systemic, there has to be some people reminding everybody that white people generally have it better, _all other things being equal_. But when it becomes trendy to repeat this point ad nauseam, while mostly ignoring the other massive sources of inequity, and especially to express it in such a dismissive way as “check your privileges”, one shouldn’t be surprised when the really unprivileged you’re pointing your finger at just because they’re of the wrong (or right) race and gender are mightily pissed off. > > Pretty much nobody who appears in the media, and even IME pretty much nobody who maintains an internet blog is in any position to use an expression such as “check your privileges”. Bunch of lucky people who should instead count their blessings, and if they really want to address this issue should avoid being dismissive and offensive while doing so, and remind themselves that it’s only _one_ issue amongst many that people have to face. > > In fact I suspect that few people on this message board are in a position that should make them feel entitled to say “check your privileges” to a whole group of people, because they’re likely to be themselves more privileged than the majority of this group. I don’t see how this conflicts with the point you quoted from me, except for your comparison between an upper class gay black female with a poor white male. As to their relative privilege, I think it depends on the circumstances, and again I don’t see how it’s useful to compare them. In some circumstances one will be more privileged (or experience more benefits), and in others, the other one will be. As to all your complaints, that just sounds like complaints about being a jerk. I agree – progressives shouldn’t be jerks, and use privilege as a cudgel. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/247 "2017-01-20T18:55:15Z")
Really? How exactly would a minority, homosexual female from a well off background be less privileged than a poverty stricken, majority ethnic group, male heterosexual? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/248 "2017-01-20T19:19:43Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Really? How exactly would a minority, homosexual female from a well off background be less privileged than a poverty stricken, majority ethnic group, male heterosexual? From outward appearances, all you see is the minority status. She can dress up, but she has to. A black guy has to wear a suit in order to not be thought of as a thug. If a white guy isn’t wearing a suit, it is thought that his suit is at the cleaners. More or less the same on the women’s side, but I know nothing about women’s fashion, so I cannot give an example. She can be fired in many places legally, and still in most places without legal recourse (even if illegal) for being gay. Do you get that threat for being straight? Do you have to hide your sexuality from your boss or co-workers for fear of harassment or dismissal? Have you ever, in your life, ever actually been concerned about being raped? So, yeah, as a white straight male like myself, there are quite a number of perspectives that you are never even exposed to, that other people are not privileged enough to be able to ignore. And, as you were very vague, I thought you meant accusing you of being privileged in general, as you do have a number of social advantages that are granted to you for no reason other than your skin color and genital arrangement that are not granted to others. But, now that you were specific, do you understand why, even if she has more money, you still have a number of social advantages she does not? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/249 "2017-01-20T22:57:48Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > For what it’s worth, an otherwise knowledgeable, reasonable candidate who stands up and says “I’d like to thank God” or something along those lines would also likely lose my vote too - not for being religious, but because it’s something that needs to stay out of politics. That would also be a thing that I, even as an agnostic/atheist, would have no particular bother with. If they’re reasonable and knowledgeable, they can thank whatever deities they like. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/250 "2017-01-20T23:20:51Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > That would also be a thing that I, even as an agnostic/atheist, would have no particular bother with. If they’re reasonable and knowledgeable, they can thank whatever deities they like. It’s generally not done in Australia, though - religion is generally seen by the average person as being a private matter which shouldn’t be involved with politics, although obviously we have Christian political parties etc. Like I said, I’ve got no problem with someone being devoutly religious, I just don’t want them representing me in parliament if possible. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/251 "2017-01-21T17:56:38Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > It’s generally not done in Australia, though - religion is generally seen by the average person as being a private matter which shouldn’t be involved with politics, although obviously we have Christian political parties etc. The same is loosely true here in the UK. > [@](#): > > Like I said, I’ve got no problem with someone being devoutly religious, I just don’t want them representing me in parliament if possible. I don’t really care either way, if they’re reasonable and knowledgeable. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/252 "2017-01-22T15:08:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > What is the point though? You just said in long form that lots of factors come into play. I may just have to invent the app that let’s people literally “check their privilege” from a smartphone. I am not sure if it will be better to have a low score or high score but it will remove any ambiguity when people argue about who has had it worse. If you do it, you’ll find plenty of swm with lower scores (higher scores?) than gay transgendered left-handed colorful people. The whole problem with identity politics is that it reduces people to representatives of groups, rather than individuals. Or, to use different language, it judges people by the color of their skin, rather than the content of their character. And it’s insulting - some would argue - to assume people should vote according to their category, rather than for what’s best for their country. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/253 "2017-01-22T15:24:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nobody gives a shit who has it worse most of the time. If nobody gives a shit, why BLM? Why the Women’s March? Why Women’s Studies, Black History, the arguments over textbooks? Why did Madeleine Albright argue there’s a “[special place in hell](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-albright-campaigns-for-hillary-clinton)” for women who don’t vote for Hillary? Why “check your privilege” & “cultural appropriation”? Why so much pressure to get women into STEM? > [@](#): > > That’s a straw man invented by people who are uncomfortable admitting that maybe they didn’t earn everything that they have, who are uncomfortable admitting that their opinion isn’t free of social context. invent whatever you’d like; there are a lot of rich white conservatives who are constantly seeking a way to dismiss the concept of privilege, and they’ve got serious disposable income and will buy your mocking app. But all it shows is that, when people tell you to listen more, you’re choosing to listen less insetad. I’m not sure you’re listening. You should check your privilege. You should listen more, and talk less. Your opinion, after all, is informed by your social context. Also, you didn’t earn everything you have. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/254 "2017-01-22T15:37:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Many minorities or disadvantaged people are put in a no-win bind when it comes to privilege. > > 1. Don’t complain about it, and just endure in silence. That might get you labeled as a “good one.” > > 2. Complain about it, and get labeled as a race/gender/religion/etc. complainer, often people who will dismiss your complaint within seconds or milliseconds of “Oh, this again?” > > You really can’t win, at times, in that situation. Sometimes you can only spread the message anonymously. > > I’ve found that the most pervasive and deep-rooted prejudice/privilege is in the area of dating and relationships. On this issue, even many folks on the political left will either 1) Deny that wealth/race/appearance etc. privilege plays a role in dating and relationships, or 2) Condone it and say that it’s OK. There’s no doubt about it. Studies show, for example, that when it comes to dating, black men have the most options, Asian men the fewest. Strangely the situation is exactly reversed on the other side. Asia women have it best. Black women have the fewest options. But what are you going to do? Create forced dating program? Anyway, when it comes to done to it, attractiveness and wealth are way more important than race. And people are more open about it. I have a (hispanic) friend who says he won’t date black women. Period. He does’t find them attractive. I’ve argued with him; I’ve known tons of hot black women. But in the end who he dates and who he finds attractive is up to him. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/255 "2017-01-22T15:46:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know anyone who fits #1, and few who fit #2. Dating and relationships _can’t_ be managed by governmental policy (and well they shouldn’t), so the best we can do for unfair treatment is endure. Talking about them is fine – it really is unfair, in the broad sense, that even aside from attractiveness, certain groups (such as Asian men and black women, cited most commonly in the stuff I’ve read about online dating) are considered less desirable. But I know individuals from both groups who have met people online and formed relationships, so it’s indeed possible. I might even suggest that folks from these groups consider getting together… Yeah, except… black women might not find Asian men attractive, and vice-versa. Arguably, that why the problem exists in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/256 "2017-01-22T15:51:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think \*\*iiandyiiii \*\*and some others have put it best. Sure, there is no one-size-fits-all answer, but on the whole, some people will have it easier than others. > > Trying to compare a rich black person with a poor white person just muddles up the debate. It doesn’t muddle the debate if the debate is whether other factors (wealth & attractiveness, for example) are greater privileges than race. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/257 "2017-01-22T16:08:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FWIW, when I got hired as an elementary school teacher, I was given an immediate $500 (IIRC) signing bonus for being a man willing to teach at a high-needs school. I definitely benefited from affirmative action, and eventually had to tell a couple of co-workers to knock it off with the jokes about how I was an affirmative action hire because it was getting annoying. They should pay more than $500. There’s not near enough elementary school teacher who are men. Some folks think boys poorer academic performance has something to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/258 "2017-01-22T16:33:24Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yeah, except… black women might not find Asian men attractive, and vice-versa. Arguably, that why the problem exists in the first place. That’s due to culture and society – and probably a part of one type of privilege/lack therof (even if it’s one we don’t talk about that often). > [@LinusK](#): > > If nobody gives a shit, why BLM? Why the Women’s March? Why Women’s Studies, Black History, the arguments over textbooks? Why did Madeleine Albright argue there’s a “[special place in hell](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-albright-campaigns-for-hillary-clinton)” for women who don’t vote for Hillary? Why “check your privilege” & “cultural appropriation”? Why so much pressure to get women into STEM? Non-sequitur – what does this have to do with what **LHoD** said? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure you’re listening. You should check your privilege. You should listen more, and talk less. Your opinion, after all, is informed by your social context. Also, you didn’t earn everything you have. I suppose this is meant as a caricature, but chances are **LHoD** would be willing to consider that he has plenty of privilege, some which may make it harder for him to understand certain arguments. What privileges do you think are involved in this particular criticism? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/259 "2017-01-22T17:06:19Z")
Its opposite for LTR such as marriage though; Asian men tend to be some of the most married cohort. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/260 "2017-01-22T17:14:21Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …kia ora Martini. Talofa lava. > > To everyone else: Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tatou katoa. > > Did that offend you? > > As you are well aware New Zealand is a bi-cultural society. Maori culture is ingrained in our way of life. Our national anthem starts with a Maori language version. If you are a visitor to somewhere you might have to sit through a pōwhiri, and at the end you will hongi with others. A meeting might start with Karakia. An important occasion might spark a spontaneous waiata. If you represent your school at sports, you might perform the haka. > > My dad is Samoan. My mum is Ngāpuhi. My whakapapa is important to me. > > I am glad that I grew up in a strong bi-cultural nation where the rights of the tangata whenua are enshrined in our national document, the Treaty of Waitangi. I own my own business: and I’ve been running it for six years. I have been successful. I am proud of my heritage and I am not afraid to embrace it. And if I do embrace it I will not get punished for it. > > But it is a lot harder for my brothers and sisters over in Australia. And I think that you have demonstrated perfectly why it is harder for them. Simply acknowledging the traditional owners of this land, even if you agree with everything else that they say, lost that candidate your vote. I just can’t fathom that. > > How do you know that none of the people living in the area are descendents of those traditional owners? > > This video still brings tears to my eyes. > > You must have hated living here. > > E noho rā. > [@](#): > > How do you know that none of the people living in the area are descendents of those traditional owners? Traditional owners can be a slippery concept. Nearly everyone who lives anywhere descends from people who came from somewhere else. Europe is particularly hard, for example, because there have been so many waves of invaders over the millennia. The Maori came from somewhere else, and were not above [invading for the sake of land.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori) > [@](#): > > Moriori are the indigenous people of the Chatham Islands (Rēkohu in Moriori, Wharekauri in Māori), east of the New Zealand archipelago in the Pacific Ocean. These people lived by a code of non-violence and passive resistance (see Nunuku-whenua), which made it easier for Taranaki Māori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s. Australia is also complicated. People who study such things date the earliest colonization of Australia from 60,000 to 125,000 years ago. It has been colonized many times since then. Wikipedia, for example says: > [@](#): > > Genetically, while some Indigenous Australians have a Melanesian and Papuan admixture, most are more closely related to Central and South Asian populations.[38][39] Research indicates a single founding Sahul group with subsequent isolation between regional populations which were relatively unaffected by later migrations from the Asian mainland. The research also suggests a divergence from the Papuan people of New Guinea and Mamanwa people of the Philippines about 32,000 years ago with a rapid population expansion about 5,000 years ago.[39] A 2011 genetic study found evidence that the Aboriginal, Papuan and Mamanwa peoples carry some of the genes associated with the Denisovan peoples of Asia, suggesting that modern and archaic humans interbred in Asia approximately 44,000 years ago, before Australia separated from Papua New Guinea and the migration to Australia.[24][25] A 2012 paper reports that there is also evidence of a substantial genetic flow from India to northern Australia estimated at slightly over four thousand years ago, a time when changes in tool technology and food processing appear in the Australian archaeological record, suggesting that these may be related.[40] Neanderthals were arguable the original owners of Europe, though they were displaced about 40,000 years ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=14)