# "Those who play the identity politics game..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969 "2017-01-12T17:18:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/261 "2017-01-22T17:26:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll single this out (just the first phrase) for disagreement since I think we’ve mostly been on the same page in this thread. There’s no way, most likely, that you could know for sure whether or not you’ve “gained an advantage at the expense of others” due to your whiteness. It’s entirely possible that you got a job, or a spot at a school, or some other benefit, due to connections (familial and/or friend/business acquaintances) having to do with race (if you were black you’d probably be less likely to be friends/family with people with beneficial connections and influence), that otherwise might have gone to an equally or more qualified minority. It’s very possible that you’ve been in situations that, had you been black, would have resulted in unfair treatment by law enforcement, or had you been a woman, would have resulted in sexual harassment or worse. > > It’s not something to feel guilty about, IMO, but it might be true. There’s a difference, though, between being “connected” and being white. There’s no doubt if your grandfather was a Senator, you probably have family connections that helped you. What you got to realize is, not all - or even more than a small minority - of whites are connected in that way. To generalize from that small minority of whites to all whites is illogical. You may not know them, if you live in Manhattan or San Francisco - but there are poor whites - millions and millions of them - who live in the flyover country. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/262 "2017-01-22T17:33:07Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There’s a difference, though, between being “connected” and being white. There’s no doubt if your grandfather was a Senator, you probably have family connections that helped you. What you got to realize is, not all - or even more than a small minority - of whites are connected in that way. To generalize from that small minority of whites to all whites is illogical. > > You may not know them, if you live in Manhattan or San Francisco - but there are poor whites - millions and millions of them - who live in the flyover country. It’s a benefit that far, far more white people receive than black people – and white people who receive may not recognize that this, rather than mere hard work alone, was part of their achievement and success. It’s, in other words, a privilege that some people don’t realize that they benefited from. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/263 "2017-01-22T22:24:47Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Traditional owners can be a slippery concept. Nearly everyone who lives anywhere descends from people who came from somewhere else. Europe is particularly hard, for example, because there have been so many waves of invaders over the millennia. …no it isn’t a slippery concept. It is a well [defined concept](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/traditional_owner), with recognition under [Australian law](http://www.austrade.gov.au/land-tenure/Engagement-guide/western-australia-information-on-engaging-with-traditional-owners). > [@](#): > > The Maori came from somewhere else, and were not above [invading for the sake of land.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori) Dude. I’m tangata whenua. You don’t need to cite wikipedia to tell me about my history. I don’t cite [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)article every time we have a discussion about free speech. Our founding document is the Treaty of Waitangi. If you want to have a discussion about that then you only need to ask. > [@](#): > > Australia is also complicated. People who study such things date the earliest colonization of Australia from 60,000 to 125,000 years ago. It has been colonized many times since then. > > Wikipedia, for example says: > > Neanderthals were arguable the original owners of Europe, though they were displaced about 40,000 years ago. Well: I for one am glad that “wikipedia says something.” However that is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Concepts such as “traditional owners”, the Moriori, tangata whenua, these are established concepts that we have had conversations about for centuries down under. You aren’t going to learn a lot about it with a two-minute google search. I’m not saying we can’t have discussion. But you need a proper frame of reference first. For New Zealand: I suggest you start here. [https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty-of-waitangi](https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty-of-waitangi) But what is relevant are the words you wrote in the OP. Since you are obviously reading my posts: there are questions I asked you in [post 158.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19920493&postcount=158) I’ll quote them again here for our convienece: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …how are you defining an “Identity Group?” > > Who makes the decision on what is and isn’t an Identity Group? What metrics are involved? Who do you apply too? Do you get a certificate? > > What does an “Identity Politics Advocate” advocate for? What is it that they want? > > Can you name some identity politics advocates? I don’t know who any of them are. > > Can you provide quotes to prove that identity politics advocate say what you claim they do? > > Why would you be upset that I didn’t know what you were saying? I still don’t know what you are talking about. I hope that doesn’t upset you. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/264 "2017-01-23T00:28:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Dude. I’m tangata whenua. You don’t need to cite wikipedia to tell me about my history. I don’t cite [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)article every time we have a discussion about free speech. We’re not the only ones participating in this thread and most Americans know fuck all about Australian or New Zealand history; including some links for the folks playing along at home strikes me as a basic courtesy rather than some sort of condescending attemtpt to talk down to you about your own history. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/265 "2017-01-23T00:42:43Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > We’re not the only ones participating in this thread and most Americans know fuck all about Australian or New Zealand history; including some links for the folks playing along at home strikes me as a basic courtesy rather than some sort of condescending attemtpt to talk down to you about your own history. …well I did include several links for the folks “playing at home.” Three to be precise. So I’ve done as you’ve asked. If LinusK knows fuck all about Australian and New Zealand history then he shouldn’t be acting like he does. You can’t get more condescending than giving me a lecture on what happened in my history by spending two minutes on google. I said he is welcome to join us in conversation. But it is a conversation that has been going on for centuries. And the conversation going on in Australia is different to the one going on in New Zealand. So he needs to get a frame of reference. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/266 "2017-01-23T01:40:50Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > How isn’t it? The unemployed white blue collar is on the average better off that the equally unemployed black blue collar. Maybe he realizes it, maybe not. But in any case he’s going to watch TV and see some Uni professor, vastly more privileged than himself (regardless of this person’s skin colour), lecturing him about “white privilege”. Why on earth wouldn’t he be royally pissed off? > > The issue is the emphasis given to “white” or “male” privilege, while socio-economic condition, for instance, has a massive impact on whether someone is privileged or not. Once again, this unemployed blue collar might be better off than his black ex-coworker. But he’s still at the lowest of the totem pole. Ignoring this and telling him about how privileged he is is really totally out of place. A bit like going to a burial and telling the mourning family that they should feel lucky because some other family’s relative died from a much more painful disease. > > As long as two college students in a comparable situation mention that the white one is more privileged than the black one, that’s mostly fine, I guess, but when they begin to spread the word to the wider world and begin to lecture people who are in fact much less privileged than themselves by any serious standard, I see a big issue. “Check your privileges” indeed. But check _all_ your privileges, not just the ones that are trendy, or just the ones that make you feel that you’re amongst the “oppressed” when you’re in fact, if anything, amongst the “oppressors”. > > And there are others inborn “privileges”. Being born in a wealthy country. Being in good health. Or being rather smart. People don’t decide to be not that bright, and despite it seriously impacting their prospects of success in life, nobody is shedding many tears for IQ-disadvantaged people. > > Seriously, if you compare being born a gay black female in an upper class family and a straight white male in an impoverished family, who do you think has the best prospect at a successful life? And as result, who should “check one’s privileges”? I’ve no doubt it’s the first one and think as a result that her saying that white straight men should check their privileges is bordering the offensive. Not even bordering, in fact. I think it’s plain offensive. > > Now, this privileged black gay woman isn’t going to compare herself with impoverished white straight man. She’s going to compare herself with equally privileged straight white men working, say, in the same audit company. Then, she might find herself at a disadvantage, and might rightfully complain about _this specific unequality_, _her specific situation_. But belonging to the upper crust, she would be rather well inspired to not lecture the really unprivileged about their supposed privileges. > > Of course, given that her specific issue is in fact systemic, there has to be some people reminding everybody that white people generally have it better, _all other things being equal_. But when it becomes trendy to repeat this point ad nauseam, while mostly ignoring the other massive sources of inequity, and especially to express it in such a dismissive way as “check your privileges”, one shouldn’t be surprised when the really unprivileged you’re pointing your finger at just because they’re of the wrong (or right) race and gender are mightily pissed off. > > Pretty much nobody who appears in the media, and even IME pretty much nobody who maintains an internet blog is in any position to use an expression such as “check your privileges”. Bunch of lucky people who should instead count their blessings, and if they really want to address this issue should avoid being dismissive and offensive while doing so, and remind themselves that it’s only _one_ issue amongst many that people have to face. > > In fact I suspect that few people on this message board are in a position that should make them feel entitled to say “check your privileges” to a whole group of people, because they’re likely to be themselves more privileged than the majority of this group. QFT. There are any number of “privileges” any one person can enjoy. Were you beaten or neglected when you were a child? Are you above-average intelligence? (Half of people are’t.) Do you suffer from mental illness? Millions of people do. Most importantly, are you rich? Or is McDonald’s your idea of a treat? I was once a passenger in a girl’s car in college. She stopped at a full-service gas station. I had literally never been to one. She had unfettered access to Daddy’s credit card. I got $0 from my parents. Who was more privileged? Please note I’m not whining or complaining. It’s just an example because my life is the one I remember. I’m privileged just from living in a first world country. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/267 "2017-01-23T02:03:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see how this conflicts with the point you quoted from me, except for your comparison between an upper class gay black female with a poor white male. As to their relative privilege, I think it depends on the circumstances, and again I don’t see how it’s useful to compare them. In some circumstances one will be more privileged (or experience more benefits), and in others, the other one will be. > > As to all your complaints, that just sounds like complaints about being a jerk. I agree – progressives shouldn’t be jerks, and use privilege as a cudgel. Why do you think it’s _not_ useful to compare some things - like wealth, for example - but it _is_ useful to compare others - say, sexual orientation, or race? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/268 "2017-01-23T02:08:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Leaving aside other aspects of this post, it’s worth noting that there’s a philosophical question here as to what counts as benefiting from race. In the parenthetical comment, you say “_if you were black you’d probably be less likely to be friends/family with people with beneficial connections and influence_”. Let’s assume that’s true. Is this relevant to anything, and does this count as benefiting from being white? > > Any given white person or black person has whatever friends/family they have. I would consider being more likely to have them if you’re a certain ethnicity to be nothing more than a statistical fact about the entire group, but is irrelevant to the individual. > > As an example, suppose a black person is more likely to have whatever qualities it is that enable them to play in the NBA. Does this mean that an individual black NBA player has benefited from being black? Seems illogical to me. > > If you look at blacks and whites as groups, then you can say that the white group on the whole benefits from having, collectively, more connections and influence than the black group. But each individual doesn’t benefit from “being white”. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/269 "2017-01-23T02:14:53Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > The fact that you’re claiming not to be guilty of benefiting from privilege AND that there’s nothing you can do to stop benefiting from privilege in the same sentence is rather impressive. You probably believe what you’re saying, but for people who haven’t drunk the cool-aid it demonstrates the fundamental absurdity of ‘privilege’ based arguments. > > Also, if you’re denying that you’re guilty of gaining at the expense of others by being white, then you’re failing to check your privilege, and this thread has made it clear that you need to do that. Human Action already stole my response, so I’ll offer a different one. Suppose there’s a county - we’ll call it “Japan” - that privileges being Japanese. Suppose it’s a wealthy country, with a rich and impressive cultural history. Are you OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/270 "2017-01-23T02:20:15Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Why do you think it’s _not_ useful to compare some things - like wealth, for example - but it _is_ useful to compare others - say, sexual orientation, or race? You’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying that there’s no point in crossing various categories - any categories - for comparison. For any given single category, like race, gender, or wealth, if all other characteristics are equal, relative privilege can reasonably be compared. I’m white, straight, upper middle class, cis, male, and able bodied - in general, I experience more privilege than Bob, a black straight UMC cis able man; or more than Jim, a gay white UMC cis able man; or more than Jill, a straight white UMC cis able woman; or more than Don, a straight white cis lower middle class able man (there are some few situations in which each of them might experience more privilege than me, but I probably experience privilege far more often in my day to day life). But it’s Bob generally more privileged than Jim, or Jill, or Don? That’s not nearly so clear, and depends on the circumstances, and I don’t think there’s much of a point comparing their overall privilege. But we can clearly say that Bob doesn’t experience white privilege, like all the others do, and Jim doesn’t experience straight privilege, like all the others do, and Jill doesn’t experience male privilege, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/271 "2017-01-23T02:27:41Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Human Action already stole my response, so I’ll offer a different one. Suppose there’s a county - we’ll call it “Japan” - that privileges being Japanese. Suppose it’s a wealthy country, with a rich and impressive cultural history. Are you OK with that? Am I OK with the existence of Japan? Yes, I am OK with that, I have no desire to eliminate the country of Japan from existing. I’m not sure how it relates to the discussion, but I am fine with Japan’s continued existence. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/272 "2017-01-23T02:44:46Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > No, it doesn’t. My cite is the linked definition which doesn’t include the caveat you’ve decided to add to it. My “caveat” the usage of the word. Can you cite any examples, that aren’t from you, of people being “accused of” being white, or “guilty of being white”? And again I note that you’re choosing to disregard talking about real issues, in favor of a) your paraphrase of someone else’s paraphrase of an uncited Facebook post, and b) trying to moralize being born with certain genes. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/273 "2017-01-23T06:14:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > My “caveat” the usage of the word. Can you cite any examples, that aren’t from you, of people being “accused of” being white, or “guilty of being white”? I’ve cited a dictionary definition, I’m not going to argue basic English meanings of words any more. When you reject the dictionary, there’s really not anything else I can say, and I’m not going to spend time trying to figure out what you’d count as an acceptable cite (when you reject the dictionary) and trying to track down whatever it is. > [@](#): > > And again I note that you’re choosing to disregard talking about real issues, in favor of a) your paraphrase of someone else’s paraphrase of an uncited Facebook post, and b) trying to moralize being born with certain genes. I think that the behavior shown in A is a real issue, and is a major part of why people tune out progressives. And B is a thing that I’m objecting to and arguing against in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/274 "2017-01-23T10:19:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > **clairobscur** , well said. And, if I might add to your excellent post; campaigners on social and cultural issues tend to be disproportionately from upper and middle classes; which leads to a situation where a well-off individual is accusing a poor one of being privileged. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s usually because you won’t listen to the poor one, and just dismiss their concerns as whining. Also, poorer people don’t have access to the same outlets for expressing their concerns - they are less able to travel, have less free time (because despite what some right-wingers think, many poor people work extremely hard for long hours), and don’t move in the same circles as the upper- and middle-class audiences they need to reach. > [@LinusK](#): > > They should pay more than $500. There’s not near enough elementary school teacher who are men. Some folks think boys poorer academic performance has something to do with that. They should pay better salaries in general. > [@LinusK](#): > > You may not know them, if you live in Manhattan or San Francisco - but there are poor whites - millions and millions of them - who live in the flyover country. You also may not know that there are millions and millions of minorities who live there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/275 "2017-01-23T10:41:49Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, poorer people don’t have access to the same outlets for expressing their concerns - they are less able to travel, have less free time (because despite what some right-wingers think, many poor people work extremely hard for long hours), and don’t move in the same circles as the upper- and middle-class audiences they need to reach. Aye, there’s a great quote by Russell Brand on this: “When I was poor and complained about inequality they said I was bitter; now that I’m rich and I complain about inequality they say I’m a hypocrite. I’m beginning to think they just don’t want to talk about inequality.” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/276 "2017-01-23T12:31:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Its opposite for LTR such as marriage though; Asian men tend to be some of the most married cohort. Although I don’t know it, I suspect black men are the least married. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/277 "2017-01-23T13:38:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …no it isn’t a slippery concept. It is a well [defined concept](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/traditional_owner), with recognition under [Australian law](http://www.austrade.gov.au/land-tenure/Engagement-guide/western-australia-information-on-engaging-with-traditional-owners). > > Dude. I’m tangata whenua. You don’t need to cite wikipedia to tell me about my history. I don’t cite [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)article every time we have a discussion about free speech. Our founding document is the Treaty of Waitangi. If you want to have a discussion about that then you only need to ask. > > > [@](#): > > > > Well: I for one am glad that “wikipedia says something.” > > > > However that is utterly irrelevant to this discussion. Concepts such as “traditional owners”, the Moriori, tangata whenua, these are established concepts that we have had conversations about for centuries down under. You aren’t going to learn a lot about it with a two-minute google search. I’m not saying we can’t have discussion. But you need a proper frame of reference first. For New Zealand: I suggest you start here. > > > > [https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty-of-waitangi](https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty-of-waitangi) > > > > But what is relevant are the words you wrote in the OP. Since you are obviously reading my posts: there are questions I asked you in [post 158.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19920493&postcount=158) I’ll quote them again here for our convienece: > > Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post > …how are you defining an “Identity Group?” > > Who makes the decision on what is and isn’t an Identity Group? What metrics are involved? Who do you apply too? Do you get a certificate? > > What does an “Identity Politics Advocate” advocate for? What is it that they want? > > Can you name some identity politics advocates? I don’t know who any of them are. > > Can you provide quotes to prove that identity politics advocate say what you claim they do? > > Why would you be upset that I didn’t know what you were saying? I still don’t know what you are talking about. I hope that doesn’t upset you. \*…how are you defining an “Identity Group?” Who makes the decision on what is and isn’t an Identity Group?\* Those are good questions. Some identity groups include blacks, trans-, women and recently Muslims. There doesn’t seem to be a particular logic to it. Note that not all religions are identity groups. FLDS is not an identity group, so far as I know, despite the fact their marriages are illegal and they’re actively prosecuted. _Who makes the decision on what is and isn’t an Identity Group? What metrics are involved? Who do you apply too? Do you get a certificate?_ There’re no metrics, there’s no applicate & no certificate. I don’t know who makes the decision. I believe you know all that. _What does an “Identity Politics Advocate” advocate for? What is it that they want?_ Generally they want things they think are good for their group, whatever that may be. Marriage licenses for gays, affirmative action, reparations, more of members of their group in elected positions are some examples. _Can you name some identity politics advocates? I don’t know who any of them are._ Sure. Madeleine Albright, members of BLM, ILGA, GATE, GLISA, CAIR, Log Cabin Republicans, TASH, Rep. John Lewis, Emma Watson and, at least arguably, Hillary Clinton. _Can you provide quotes to prove that identity politics advocate say what you claim they do?_ I could, but you can find them just as easily. _Why would you be upset that I didn’t know what you were saying? I still don’t know what you are talking about. I hope that doesn’t upset you._ I’m sorry you don’t know what I’m talking about. If you’ll tell which sentences you don’t understand I’ll try to clarify. > [@](#): > > …no it isn’t a slippery concept. It is a well defined concept, with recognition under Australian law. I was talking about the concept of “original owners of land”. And it is a slippery idea. For some more examples, who are the “original owners” of Palestine (now Israel)? Northern Ireland? Mexico? The USA? Texas? South Africa? Crimea? Prussia (now Poland)? Yugoslavia? Argentina? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/278 "2017-01-23T13:47:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying that there’s no point in crossing various categories - any categories - for comparison. For any given single category, like race, gender, or wealth, if all other characteristics are equal, relative privilege can reasonably be compared. I’m white, straight, upper middle class, cis, male, and able bodied - in general, I experience more privilege than Bob, a black straight UMC cis able man; or more than Jim, a gay white UMC cis able man; or more than Jill, a straight white UMC cis able woman; or more than Don, a straight white cis lower middle class able man (there are some few situations in which each of them might experience more privilege than me, but I probably experience privilege far more often in my day to day life). > > But it’s Bob generally more privileged than Jim, or Jill, or Don? That’s not nearly so clear, and depends on the circumstances, and I don’t think there’s much of a point comparing their overall privilege. But we can clearly say that Bob doesn’t experience white privilege, like all the others do, and Jim doesn’t experience straight privilege, like all the others do, and Jill doesn’t experience male privilege, etc. The point I’m trying to make is that the categories you seem most interested in - race, gender, sexual orientation - for example - are less important than categories you seem less interested in. Wealth, for example. Why? I’m also interested in “white privilege”. What, specifically, does someone get just for being white? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/279 "2017-01-23T13:52:58Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > Human Action already stole my response, so I’ll offer a different one. Suppose there’s a county - we’ll call it “Japan” - that privileges being Japanese. Suppose it’s a wealthy country, with a rich and impressive cultural history. Are you OK with that? > > Am I OK with the existence of Japan? Yes, I am OK with that, I have no desire to eliminate the country of Japan from existing. I’m not sure how it relates to the discussion, but I am fine with Japan’s continued existence. You’re misunderstanding my question. I didn’t ask if it’s ok for Japan to exist. My question is if - hypothetically - Japan actively discourages or even prevents non-Japanese from living there or becoming citizens is that OK? If they treat non-Japanese differently - say, as outsiders - even if they do live there, is that OK? If they actively - and passively, for that matter - discriminate against people who aren’t Japanese living in Japan, does that make them bigots and racists? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/280 "2017-01-23T14:06:21Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The point I’m trying to make is that the categories you seem most interested in - race, gender, sexual orientation - for example - are less important than categories you seem less interested in. Wealth, for example. Why? Because wealth is changeable, for one – I think that government policy is the best way to address wealth inequality (and any associated privilege or lack), but many or most privileges for those other categories can’t (or shouldn’t) be addressed by government (i.e. government can’t force store owners to be less suspicious of black customers, or force film and TV professionals to portray black people more positively, and the like). I’m fine with talking about the privileges of wealth, I just think the best way to address them is different than the way to address the other issues of privilege. > [@](#): > > I’m also interested in “white privilege”. What, specifically, does someone get just for being white? There are probably thousands of answers or more – here are a few that come to mind (for America): a myriad of positive role models - historical figures taught in schools and media figures and fictional characters of all types (as opposed to only athletes, performers, and a very small number of politicians, historical figures commonly taught, and positive fictional characters); a societal/cultural standard of beauty that relatively closely matches one’s skin color, facial features, and hair texture; a greater level of assumed trust from authority figures (teachers, law enforcement, etc.); a lack of numerous reminders each day that one has been considered less than human by most of society for the majority of the country’s history; the general assumption that one’s positions and achievements are due to merit, rather than other factors (especially for white males – white women probably share this lack of privilege with many minorities to some degree); much less personal fear from those one interacts with day-to-day; a language standard (i.e. the “proper” way of speaking) that is usually pretty close, if not identical, to the dialect one happens to speak in the home and learned from one’s parents. Just off the top of my head – I’m sure others can chime in with plenty more examples. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=15)