# "Those who play the identity politics game..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969 "2017-01-12T17:18:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/281 "2017-01-23T14:07:41Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You’re misunderstanding my question. I didn’t ask if it’s ok for Japan to exist. My question is if - hypothetically - Japan actively discourages or even prevents non-Japanese from living there or becoming citizens is that OK? If they treat non-Japanese differently - say, as outsiders - even if they do live there, is that OK? If they actively - and passively, for that matter - discriminate against people who aren’t Japanese living in Japan, does that make them bigots and racists? Those sound like bigoted and/or racist actions to me. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/282 "2017-01-23T14:28:07Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’ve cited a dictionary definition, I’m not going to argue basic English meanings of words any more. When you reject the dictionary, there’s really not anything else I can say, and I’m not going to spend time trying to figure out what you’d count as an acceptable cite (when you reject the dictionary) and trying to track down whatever it is. I haven’t rejected anything, you’ve simply failed to make any connection between the dictionary, and your argument. [Here’s the definition of “privilege”.](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege?s=t) Therefore, it is exists, and I win. This is not an argument. > [@](#): > > I think that the behavior shown in A is a real issue, and is a major part of why people tune out progressives. And B is a thing that I’m objecting to and arguing against in this thread. Well, you can complain about secondhand reports of tone-deaf Facebook posts, the rest of us will work on the very real inequalities in our society. I have no further interest in continuing this discussion. Thanks for remaining civil, but we’re talking past each other and nothing meaningful is being uncovered. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/283 "2017-01-23T14:36:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Just off the top of my head – I’m sure others can chime in with plenty more examples. As a white guy, there’s nothing I can do that will reflect on white guys as a class. A white guy commits a mass shooting, and it’s a tragedy. An Arab commits a mass shooting, and it makes all Arabs suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/284 "2017-01-23T15:18:04Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > You’re misunderstanding my question. I didn’t ask if it’s ok for Japan to exist. My question is if - hypothetically - Japan actively discourages or even prevents non-Japanese from living there or becoming citizens is that OK? If they treat non-Japanese differently - say, as outsiders - even if they do live there, is that OK? If they actively - and passively, for that matter - discriminate against people who aren’t Japanese living in Japan, does that make them bigots and racists? For specifics, what does ‘is that OK’ mean, exactly - by not OK, does that mean ‘the US should be preparing sanctions or military action against them’, or ‘I disapprove’? I don’t think that racial/cultural discrimination is a good thing, and I’ve been arguing against the idea of discriminating against people based on their race here. People who discriminate against other people because of their race are racists by definition, and racists are bigots. I am wondering why you are posting that as a response to what I’ve said in this thread, and what relevance it has to the discussion at hand. This doesn’t appear to be a reasonable response to anything I’ve said, so I’m skeptical that it’s going to lead anywhere useful. For relevance to this thread, I would disapprove if, in your ‘hypothetical’, a Westerner visiting Japan and teaching English for fun told a poor Japanese person who’s working 60 hours per week to live in a closet-sized apartment ‘check your privilege’. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/285 "2017-01-23T17:00:43Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Studies show, for example, that when it comes to dating, black men have the most options, Asian men the fewest. Strangely the situation is exactly reversed on the other side. Asia women have it best. Black women have the fewest options. I have a theory/observation about it which is no doubt politically incorrect, but I think at least partially true: Asians in general are often perceived as more “beta,” while black and white people are perceived as more “alpha.” Being beta is often desirable in women, but not in men, so Asian women are attractive while Asian men are not. Conversely, being alpha is often desirable in men, but not in women, so black and white men are attractive, but black women are not. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/286 "2017-01-23T17:01:59Z")
Sorry, not to hijack the thread, that was just a related offshoot. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/287 "2017-01-25T01:54:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s a benefit that far, far more white people receive than black people – and white people who receive may not recognize that this, rather than mere hard work alone, was part of their achievement and success. It’s, in other words, a privilege that some people don’t realize that they benefited from. If you’re one of the vast majority who don’t benefit, it doesn’t really matter that others do. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/288 "2017-01-25T02:55:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because wealth is changeable, for one – I think that government policy is the best way to address wealth inequality (and any associated privilege or lack), but many or most privileges for those other categories can’t (or shouldn’t) be addressed by government (i.e. government can’t force store owners to be less suspicious of black customers, or force film and TV professionals to portray black people more positively, and the like). I’m fine with talking about the privileges of wealth, I just think the best way to address them is different than the way to address the other issues of privilege. > > There are probably thousands of answers or more – here are a few that come to mind (for America): a myriad of positive role models - historical figures taught in schools and media figures and fictional characters of all types (as opposed to only athletes, performers, and a very small number of politicians, historical figures commonly taught, and positive fictional characters); a societal/cultural standard of beauty that relatively closely matches one’s skin color, facial features, and hair texture; a greater level of assumed trust from authority figures (teachers, law enforcement, etc.); a lack of numerous reminders each day that one has been considered less than human by most of society for the majority of the country’s history; the general assumption that one’s positions and achievements are due to merit, rather than other factors (especially for white males – white women probably share this lack of privilege with many minorities to some degree); much less personal fear from those one interacts with day-to-day; a language standard (i.e. the “proper” way of speaking) that is usually pretty close, if not identical, to the dialect on e happens to speak in the home and learned from one’s parents. Just off the top of my head – I’m sure others can chime in with plenty more examples. Positive role models: Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Beyoncé, Tiger Woods, John Lewis… “Assumed trust”: what I’ve noticed in my lifetime - after being hassled by cops any number times as a youth - is that cops suspect young men of being up to no good. Older people and women benefit most when it comes to cops. Proper speech: how you talk has as much influence on people as how you carry yourself and how you dress. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but it’s not a problem exclusive to black people. “the general assumption that one’s positions and achievements are due to merit”… The whole point of identity politics - is that white people _didn’t_ ean what they have - isn’t it? “much less personal fear from those one interacts with day-to-day”: This is mainly a female privilege. Unless it’s not a privilege. As far as history goes… what can I say? My own ancestors were ejected from the US because of their religion. It’s important to remember, but history can’t be changed. So far as I know, I have no ancestor who was a slave owner. Many (perhaps most) black people do. I don’t think that should be held against them. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/289 "2017-01-25T05:53:23Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Positive role models: Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Beyoncé, Tiger Woods, John Lewis… Do y’know why Black History Month is a thing? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![bomberswarm2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bomberswarm2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bomberswarm2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/290 "2017-01-25T06:53:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are probably thousands of answers or more – here are a few that come to mind (for America): a myriad of positive role models - historical figures taught in schools and media figures and fictional characters of all types (as opposed to only athletes, performers, and a very small number of politicians, historical figures commonly taught, and positive fictional characters); a societal/cultural standard of beauty that relatively closely matches one’s skin color, facial features, and hair texture; a greater level of assumed trust from authority figures (teachers, law enforcement, etc.); a lack of numerous reminders each day that one has been considered less than human by most of society for the majority of the country’s history; the general assumption that one’s positions and achievements are due to merit, rather than other factors (especially for white males – white women probably share this lack of privilege with many minorities to some degree); much less personal fear from those one interacts with day-to-day; a language standard (i.e. the “proper” way of speaking) that is usually pretty close, if not identical, to the dialect one happens to speak in the home and learned from one’s parents. Just off the top of my head – I’m sure others can chime in with plenty more examples. So basically your racist idiotic self just declared that White people are born white, so they should be discriminated against in favour of other people? Why should the global minority keep being crushed by the racist black global majority? Why should White people be discriminated afainst because of their skin colur? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/291 "2017-01-25T07:59:07Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > So basically your racist idiotic self just declared that White people are born white, so they should be discriminated against in favour of other people? Why should the global minority keep being crushed by the racist black global majority? Why should White people be discriminated afainst because of their skin colur? How does this have literally any relation to what he was saying, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/292 "2017-01-25T09:58:21Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > So basically your racist idiotic self just declared that White people are born white, so they should be discriminated against in favour of other people? Why should the global minority keep being crushed by the racist black global majority? Why should White people be discriminated afainst because of their skin colur? Well, that will earn you a warning. Please don’t insult other posters outside The Pit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/293 "2017-01-25T12:37:36Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > So basically your racist idiotic self just declared that White people are born white, so they should be discriminated against in favour of other people? Why should the global minority keep being crushed by the racist black global majority? Why should White people be discriminated afainst because of their skin colur? None of this has any relation to what I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/294 "2017-01-25T13:08:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of this has any relation to what I posted. Nor to reality. Because “White people” are not “being crushed” by a “racist global black majority”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/295 "2017-01-25T14:52:13Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Positive role models: Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Beyoncé, Tiger Woods, John Lewis… These are all terrible role models. It’s not remotely realistic for the vast majority of people (of any race) to achieve success in the fields that these people were successful in, let alone the level of success that these people achieved. What black kids (much like white kids) need in terms of role models is hordes of black doctors, lawyers, accountants, auto mechanics, insurance adjusters and so on. [I have a sister who used to work in the (overwhelmingly black) Detroit public school system. I remember her telling me that you could see the difference in kids’ aspirations by age (I believe this was some sort of survey - she herself is a speech therapist, and she had experience across all grades). Really little kids had aspirations along the lines of my previous paragraph. By the time these kids got to the middle grades, virtually all intended to be either basketball players or rappers. That’s a disaster.] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/296 "2017-01-25T15:20:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > These are all terrible role models. It’s not remotely realistic for the vast majority of people (of any race) to achieve success in the fields that these people were successful in, let alone the level of success that these people achieved. > > What black kids (much like white kids) need in terms of role models is hordes of black doctors, lawyers, accountants, auto mechanics, insurance adjusters and so on. > > [I have a sister who used to work in the (overwhelmingly black) Detroit public school system. I remember her telling me that you could see the difference in kids’ aspirations by age (I believe this was some sort of survey - she herself is a speech therapist, and she had experience across all grades). Really little kids had aspirations along the lines of my previous paragraph. By the time these kids got to the middle grades, virtually all intended to be either basketball players or rappers. That’s a disaster.] I agree with everything except the first sentence - those famous people are good role models, but they’re not nearly enough without hundreds of thousands of mundane professionals like the ones you mention. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/297 "2017-01-25T16:05:49Z")
To the extent that they encourage kids to set their sights on trying to emulate them, they’re bad role models. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/298 "2017-01-25T17:06:59Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > …The whole problem with identity politics is that it reduces people to representatives of groups, rather than individuals. Or, to use different language, it judges people by the color of their skin, rather than the content of their character… QFT, and if we judge the individual based on the content of their character and find it lacking, SJWs will claim that it is due to their skin color!!! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/299 "2017-01-25T18:52:04Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > QFT, and if we judge the individual based on the content of their character and find it lacking, SJWs will claim that it is due to their skin color!!! Let’s say there was a Republican candidate for president who proposed banning Muslims from entering the US, claimed that American Muslims had celebrated on 9/11, and appointed a man to the post of National Security Advisor who’d described Islam as “a cancer”. Are Muslims morally forbidden from voting Democratic en masse in response to all this? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/300 "2017-01-26T19:02:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > > [@LinusK](#): > > > > Positive role models: Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, Beyoncé, Tiger Woods, John Lewis… > > These are all terrible role models. It’s not remotely realistic for the vast majority of people (of any race) to achieve success in the fields that these people were successful in, let alone the level of success that these people achieved. > > What black kids (much like white kids) need in terms of role models is hordes of black doctors, lawyers, accountants, auto mechanics, insurance adjusters and so on. I agree that people like Michael Jordan and Oprah are bad role models. Not because they set too high a standard but because they have no real contact with any children but their own. Because what all children need is for their parents, especially their fathers, to be good role models. The main reason black children under-achieve is because the large minority grow up without the long-term presence of a father figure. To hell with sports figures. What children need is someone who communicates “you are worth caring about” by sticking around and showing him or her what it means to be a man. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=16)