# "Those who play the identity politics game..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969 "2017-01-12T17:18:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/301 "2017-01-26T19:04:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To the extent that they encourage kids to set their sights on trying to emulate them, they’re bad role models. I think they do encourage kids to do this, to some extent (to a great extent with very ambitious kids). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/302 "2017-01-26T19:07:05Z")
Right. That’s one reason they’re bad role models. One in a million kids decides to follow their dream of becoming like these people and is actually successful at it. The rest are either failures or select/adjust to more realistic goals. But if there’s a dearth of more realistic role models you have a lot more failures from people pursuing these unrealistic goals to the exclusion of more realistic ones. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/303 "2017-01-26T19:30:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. That’s one reason they’re bad role models. > > One in a million kids decides to follow their dream of becoming like these people and is actually successful at it. The rest are either failures or select/adjust to more realistic goals. But if there’s a dearth of more realistic role models you have a lot more failures from people pursuing these unrealistic goals to the exclusion of more realistic ones. Right – but it works the other way too (to some extent, at least). If, say, we had no lack of black middle/upper-middle class professionals, but no black CEOs, Senators, Presidents, media figures, and the like – that might discourage high-achieving kids from putting their all into their work, since they might assume that they have no chance of rising above the middle of the pack in any case. I’m not saying it’s better the way it is now – ideally we’d have plenty of both (and there are plenty of black professionals, of course, but perhaps not enough or not spread widely enough to serve as role models for all kids) in every community. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/304 "2017-01-26T19:50:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – but it works the other way too (to some extent, at least). If, say, we had no lack of black middle/upper-middle class professionals, but no black CEOs, Senators, Presidents, media figures, and the like – that might discourage high-achieving kids from putting their all into their work, since they might assume that they have no chance of rising above the middle of the pack in any case. OK, but net-net, I think celebrities are a negative as role models. Even for whites, but especially so for blacks who have a relative dearth of middle-class role models. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/305 "2017-01-30T17:04:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Do y’know why Black History Month is a thing? Just curious. I do. You? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/306 "2017-01-30T17:31:23Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I have a theory/observation about it which is no doubt politically incorrect, but I think at least partially true: > > Asians in general are often perceived as more “beta,” while black and white people are perceived as more “alpha.” Being beta is often desirable in women, but not in men, so Asian women are attractive while Asian men are not. Conversely, being alpha is often desirable in men, but not in women, so black and white men are attractive, but black women are not. I don’t know whether you’re Wong or right. But there’s something called [neoteny](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny), which refers to the retention of juvenile characteristics in adults. Things like large eyes (in relation to the face), small nose, small mouth, lack of facial or body hair. In women neotony is seen as attractive. In men, not so much. It could have something to do with it. Interestingly, in children’s TV shows neotony in female characters is wildly exaggerated. The “Glitter Girls,” “My Little Pony” and “Power Puff Girls” are examples. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/307 "2017-01-31T09:29:24Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I don’t know whether you’re Wong or right. In a discussion about Asians, this is either a spectacular Freudian slip or an appalling joke. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/308 "2017-01-31T16:34:39Z")
I laughed, but then again I am a terrible person. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/309 "2017-02-01T00:17:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those sound like bigoted and/or racist actions to me. Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. 2nd only to Monaco for homicides, for example. (The rate is 0 for Monaco.) People don’t bother to lock their bikes there, or so I’ve been told. They have approximately zero immigration, and their population is falling, because deaths outnumber births. Still, it’s a great place, or so I’ve heard. They welcome visitors, but don’t encourage outsiders to stay there. I’m not sure I’d call them racists or bigots. Perhaps they just like Japan staying Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/310 "2017-02-01T00:32:36Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. 2nd only to Monaco for homicides, for example. (The rate is 0 for Monaco.) People don’t bother to lock their bikes there, or so I’ve been told. They have approximately zero immigration, and their population is falling, because deaths outnumber births. Still, it’s a great place, or so I’ve heard. They welcome visitors, but don’t encourage outsiders to stay there. I’m not sure I’d call them racists or bigots. Perhaps they just like Japan staying Japanese. You described several actions, and I’m characterizing those actions. I’m not saying the Japanese people are racist. Perhaps some policies of their government are. Whether Japan is a nice place is entirely immaterial. If we instituted summary execution for black and Hispanic people for every crime more severe than theft, our crime rate might decrease substantially. That wouldn’t justify bigoted policies. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/311 "2017-02-01T00:54:47Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > They welcome visitors, but don’t encourage outsiders to stay there. I’m not sure I’d call them racists or bigots. Perhaps they just like Japan staying Japanese. Not saying the Japanese approach is wrong or incorrect etc, but the thing is, pretty much any other first world country saying “Yeah, look, you’re welcome to visit but we’d prefer you don’t live here unless you’re part of our predominant ethnic group” would generate enough outrage to fuel the internet until the heat death of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/312 "2017-02-01T12:47:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, poorer people don’t have access to the same outlets for expressing their concerns - they are less able to travel, have less free time (because despite what some right-wingers think, many poor people work extremely hard for long hours), and don’t move in the same circles as the upper- and middle-class audiences they need to reach. > > They should pay better salaries in general. > > You also may not know that there are millions and millions of minorities who live there as well. But not in the same neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/313 "2017-02-01T12:54:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > These are all terrible role models. It’s not remotely realistic for the vast majority of people (of any race) to achieve success in the fields that these people were successful in, let alone the level of success that these people achieved. > > What black kids (much like white kids) need in terms of role models is hordes of black doctors, lawyers, accountants, auto mechanics, insurance adjusters and so on. > > [I have a sister who used to work in the (overwhelmingly black) Detroit public school system. I remember her telling me that you could see the difference in kids’ aspirations by age (I believe this was some sort of survey - she herself is a speech therapist, and she had experience across all grades). Really little kids had aspirations along the lines of my previous paragraph. By the time these kids got to the middle grades, virtually all intended to be either basketball players or rappers. That’s a disaster.] Rappers and basketball players is disaster. But not everybody can be an astronaut or president. The world needs mechanics and plumbers and carpenters and accountants and web designers as well as doctors and lawyers. Everybody changes their aspirations as they mature. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/314 "2017-02-01T12:58:44Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > As a white guy, there’s nothing I can do that will reflect on white guys as a class. A white guy commits a mass shooting, and it’s a tragedy. An Arab commits a mass shooting, and it makes all Arabs suspect. True. “White guys” is not an “identity” in the sense of identity politics. Should it be? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/315 "2017-02-01T12:59:55Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Not saying the Japanese approach is wrong or incorrect etc, but the thing is, pretty much any other first world country saying “Yeah, look, you’re welcome to visit but we’d prefer you don’t live here unless you’re part of our predominant ethnic group” would generate enough outrage to fuel the internet until the heat death of the universe. Plenty of people, including members of the current administration, have been saying this for years. Somehow they have endured the heat. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/316 "2017-02-01T13:00:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree with everything except the first sentence - those famous people are good role models, but they’re not nearly enough without hundreds of thousands of mundane professionals like the ones you mention. There are hundreds of thousands - strike that - millions of hard-working black people with ordinary jobs. Including many of the parents of the kids in that school. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/317 "2017-02-01T13:02:03Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > There are hundreds of thousands - strike that - millions of hard-working black people with ordinary jobs. Including many of the parents of the kids in that school. If I got the raw numbers wrong I apologize. My larger point is about the effects of bigotry and discrimination in wider society and culture on these sorts of statistics. There’s a reason that the two most oppressed and brutalized groups in American history – black people and Native American people – are statistically represented at the bottom of criminal, financial, educational, and similar statistics, resulting in a relative dearth (even if the raw numbers seem large) of the kinds of role models kids need. Centuries of brutality and present outcomes are related. Apologies if I poorly stated my point. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/318 "2017-02-01T13:05:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Let’s say there was a Republican candidate for president who proposed banning Muslims from entering the US, claimed that American Muslims had celebrated on 9/11, and appointed a man to the post of National Security Advisor who’d described Islam as “a cancer”. > > Are Muslims morally forbidden from voting Democratic en masse in response to all this? No one should be forbidden from voting against Donald Trump. Or Hillary Clinton, for that matter. That we had to choose between two politicians with historically low approval ratings is a commentary on the poor state of our political parties. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/319 "2017-02-01T13:06:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I agree that people like Michael Jordan and Oprah are bad role models. Not because they set too high a standard but because they have no real contact with any children but their own. > > Because what all children need is for their parents, especially their fathers, to be good role models. The main reason black children under-achieve is because the large minority grow up without the long-term presence of a father figure. > > To hell with sports figures. What children need is someone who communicates “you are worth caring about” by sticking around and showing him or her what it means to be a man. > > Regards, > Shodan I agree 100%. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969/320 "2017-02-01T13:08:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > In a discussion about Asians, this is either a spectacular Freudian slip or an appalling joke. Neither. It was auto-correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/those-who-play-the-identity-politics-game/776969.md?page=17)