# Thou shall not kill, or thall shall not murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295 "2004-04-10T06:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![seriousart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@seriousart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seriousart)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/1 "2004-04-10T06:27:43Z")
In a recent argument with a fundamentalist, I argued that his positions of being pro war, pro death penalty (and more radically, pro assasination of doctors who perform abortions) :eek: were antithetical to Thou shall not Kill. He argued that the true translation is Thou shall not Murder, being that some killing is justified such as in war. After some googling, I found several pages on this but nothing definitive. Seems that more than one war-happy Christian seems to embrace this translation. Is this some sort of revisionist translating, or does God/ Jesus condone killing those who _really_ deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/2 "2004-04-10T07:19:19Z")
Jesus is pretty clear on killing for any reason (including self-defense) being wrong. One of the significant changes in the New Covenant was the departure from the Jewish “eye for an eye” principle- under a pure interpretation of the Gospels, the death penalty and war are Bad Things. Of course, abortion is too, but it’s God’s job to take care of those pesky pro-choice types. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/3 "2004-04-10T07:32:24Z")
I believe that the original language does indeed use a word that means “murder” more than it means “kill.” But of course, “murder” is a socially defined and fairly arbitrary concept, and once you concede it as the dividing line, you are conceding that any killing can potentially be justified simply be redefining murder. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/4 "2004-04-10T08:09:23Z")
Thou shall not kill - straight from the horse’s mouth, if you will. 😉 [Link](http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/god_clarifies_dont_kill.html) ---
**Author:** ![seriousart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@seriousart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seriousart)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/5 "2004-04-10T08:24:10Z")
That’s one of my favorite Onion articles, iamme99 🙂 Maybe someone more learned in the Bible could fill me in on some other points. The guy in the OP mentioned that Jesus somehow granted powers to certain warriors to strike down untold enemies. This ring a bell with anyone? I know the Bible is rife with contradictions, but I aways got the impression that Jesus was consistantly a turn-the-other-cheek sort of guy. He did drive out the money lenders, though without killing any of them, correct? I figured, of all people, he’d be against the death penalty, having some rather unfortunate experience with that, himself. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/6 "2004-04-10T12:18:42Z")
> [@seriousart](#): > > Maybe someone more learned in the Bible could fill me in on some other points. The guy in the OP mentioned that Jesus somehow granted powers to certain warriors to strike down untold enemies. This ring a bell with anyone? St. Paul taught that the state was empowered by God to maintain public order, (Romans 13:3-5) and that therefore it could use “the sword” to punish evil-doers. Is that what you meant? Jesus also told His disiples “let he who has no sword sell his coat and buy one”. Which is subject, as ever, to interpretation. > [@seriousart](#): > > I know the Bible is rife with contradictions, but I aways got the impression that Jesus was consistantly a turn-the-other-cheek sort of guy. He did drive out the money lenders, though without killing any of them, correct? True, but there are several parables and teachings of Jesus where He mentions rulers executing people (Mark 12:9, Luke 19:27). And He never made any suggestion that the centurion whose favorite servant He healed was wrong to be a member of the military (Matthew 8:4-14). > [@seriousart](#): > > I figured, of all people, he’d be against the death penalty, having some rather unfortunate experience with that, himself. Not really. The only person who Jesus guaranteed would go to Heaven was the penitent thief being crucified next to Him, who admitted that in being executed, the thief was getting what he deserved (Luke 23:42-44). No suggestion that execution was wrong or immoral. Cites available [here.](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/7 "2004-04-10T12:54:33Z")
According to rabbi Joseph Telushkin, author of Jewish Cultural Literacy, it’s thou shalt not commit murder. Most other Jewish scholars agree with that interpretation. Killing another human is not a good thing and should be avoided, but there are circumstances in which it is acceptable. Semi Hijack Telushkin also endorses an alternate interpretation of another commandment. He says it isn’t ‘thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain’, but ‘thou shalt not _carry_ the name of the Lord in vain.’. This means the prohibition is not against 'goddamned hamsters!" and the like. The prohibition is against falsely claiming to do G-d’s work- many televangelists exemplify come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/8 "2004-04-10T14:42:04Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Jesus is pretty clear on killing for any reason (including self-defense) being wrong. Cite, please? I’m pretty sure that Jesus said no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/9 "2004-04-10T14:57:37Z")
Taken as a whole the Old Testament rule seems to be that you shouldn’t kill within the group without the sanction of the elders. However you should always kill whomever God directs be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobelia\_Overhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@Lobelia\_Overhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobelia_Overhill)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/10 "2004-04-10T21:41:42Z")
Is there a bit in the Bible where Moses (I think) watched a great battle between his and another army fought viciously and God told Moses (or whoever) that if he kept his arms raised above his head his army would win? Now when was the last time an army won a battle by calling the other side rude names? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/11 "2004-04-10T23:03:54Z")
I too would say that it is pretty clear according to the old testament that killing is not wrong in all cases. And I have heard from jewish scholars that the more accurate translation is “Thou shall not murder”. As I’m not a biblical scholar and do not understand the original language the passage was written in, I can only take their word for it. Unfortunately (IMHO) the old testament also gives examples of killing that I personally would object to morally (Moses sending those who beleived in his god to kill all men, woman and children whom did not beleive, and many, many other such examples peppering the old testament). The new testament shines a new light on the sibject, but it’s certainly not as cut and dry as some would like to beleive. Upon close examination you can see that although jesus attempts to change some of the teachings from the old testament, his basic views on the morality of killing are not much far off from the old testament teachings (seems natural to me as he was raised jewish). Of course, I’m not christian, so I do not use an old book of mythology to guide my morals. And yet, I’m always suprised to see that I tend to hold much more peaceful tenets than some christians I know. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/12 "2004-04-10T23:22:05Z")
The most common reference as per the OP is the Ten Commandments (found in Exodus 20, and specifically Exodus 20:13). The most common and most popular reading comes from the King James translation: “Thou shalt not kill.” However, while the KJV has great poetry, it’s not an accurate translation. The Hebrew text is _lo tirtzakh_, the verb from the root R-Tz-Kh which applies only to illegal killings. Hence “murder” is a far better translation. Ancient Hebrew has several other verbs that are used for killing – for instance, for killing in war, or for execution (killing in the administration of justice.) If the Commandment were meant to apply to any killing, the verb would probably have been _taharog_. Also, you generally aren’t going to get too many Hebrew scholars replying on a Saturday… ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/13 "2004-04-11T04:32:09Z")
I am a Hebrew / Bible scholar of sorts, and I would affirm what C K Dexter Haven wrote – generallly, RaTzaCh is illegal killing and HaRaG is killing in general. The OT is not entirely consistent in usage, but consistent enough to warrant this conclusion. Though I am by no means a NT scholar or scholar of Christianity, I have never heard a responsible theologian claim that the NT in particular, or Christian theology in general, found all killing, including killing in self defense, immoral. ---
**Author:** ![633squadron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/ee59a6/32.png) [@633squadron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/633squadron)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/14 "2004-04-11T04:44:20Z")
> [@seriousart](#): > > He argued that the true translation is Thou shall not Murder, being that some killing is justified such as in war. After some googling, I found several pages on this but nothing definitive. Seems that more than one war-happy Christian seems to embrace this translation. I was taught that the best translation is “you shall not kill someone for a prohibited reason.” That is, not all killing is OK, but some is. That fits pretty well with murder the way most people understand it. “You shall not take the name of G-d in vain.” This is an admonition against vows and oaths that use the Holy Name. My honor and reliability towards someone else is **mine** , not G-d’s, and I have to stand behind it. Kinda like if you transgress against someone else, you have to ask forgiveness from that person, not from G-d. “An eye for an eye…” Nobody gets this right. The full text does indeed say “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” The idea is **not** tit-for-tat. The idea is justice according to the severity of the crime. That is, a big punishment for a big loss and a small punishment for a small loss. It took Western Europe until the 1800s to figure this one out. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/15 "2004-04-11T05:14:28Z")
> [@seriousart](#): > > Maybe someone more learned in the Bible could fill me in on some other points. The guy in the OP mentioned that Jesus somehow granted powers to certain warriors to strike down untold enemies. This ring a bell with anyone? It does ring a bell, actually, but not a good one. Your friend didn’t happen to refer to the Phineas priests, did he? Some of the extreme far right, often immersed in a sect known as Christian Identity, have developed the idea of the Phineas priesthood - that it is completely acceptable to God that they should kill people who in their view break God’s commandments. The Phineas priests take their biblical authority from chapter 25 of the [Book of Numbers](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=NUM%2B25&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=KJV&x=14&y=6): > [@](#): > > 1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. > 2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. > 3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. > 4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. > 5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor. > 6 And, behold, **one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman** in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. > 7 And **when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; > 8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly.** So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. > 9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. > 10 **And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, > 11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. > 12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: > 13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.** Since the “sin” involved in this story is inter-racial marriage, you can see how it would have an attraction to the white supremacists. From there, it’s only a hop skip and jump in their twisted theology to expand the mandate of the Phineas Priests to include killing doctors who perform abortions, and also gays and lesbians. They view themselves as part of the “everlasting priesthood”, successors to Phineas. Here’s an article from the Montana Human Rights Network which deals with the [Phineas Priests](http://www.mhrn.org/news/1096phineas.html): > [@](#): > > **Who are the Phineas Priests?** > > Phineas priests believe they are justified in murdering people who, they say, “disobey God’s laws” by performing abortions, marrying someone of another race, or being a homosexual. They rely on the biblical story of Phineas, recounted in Numbers 25, to add God’s blessing to their heinous beliefs and violent actions. > > Paul Hill, the man convicted of the abortion clinic murders of Dr. John Britton and his escort, James Barrett, encouraged his fellow anti-abortion extremists to commit “Phineas actions.” He used the same Old Testament passage to justify such actions. The far right publication _Jubilee_ referred to Hill as a Phineas priest. Now, this is all Old Testament stuff, not tied to any action of Jesus, so it may not be what your friend was referring to. But if it is… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/16 "2004-04-11T07:04:50Z")
Maybe this is proof of that old canard about the Southern accent being a survival of Elizabethan English? “Listen, th’all shall not murder, hear?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/17 "2004-04-11T15:00:56Z")
First of all, the name is “Pinchas” in Hebrew. Second, the “sin” of the Israelite man, identified as Zimri in Nu. 25.14 could hardly have been that he had intercourse with a Midianite woman, since Moses himself was married to a Midianite woman (see Exodus 2:16 and following verses). The sin was apostasy – the Hebrew term “harlotry” used in 25:1 is a term also used for going after foreign gods – as we see in the next verse. The prohibition against marrying certain foreigners in Ex. 34:11 ff and Deut. 7:1-5 does not include Midianites. In addition, the reason is clearly given: not interracial marriage, but the threat of apostasy. Remember, Moses’ second wife was a Cushite (black African) – see Nu. 12. Third, we should recall that Christian history is rife with murder (unjustifed killing) for the sake of the religion – the Crusades and the Inquisition come to mind. Paul’s overthrow of the OT law does not seem to interfered with human blood lust very much. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/18 "2004-04-11T16:56:37Z")
I don’t dispute any of that, **Lynwood**. I’m just stating the interpretation that the nutjobs who argue for the Phineas priesthood use to advance their twisted position. That’s why I put “sin” in quotation marks in discussing the passage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/19 "2004-04-11T17:35:11Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Cite, please? I’m pretty sure that Jesus said no such thing. You want a cite for “Turn the other cheek”? ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295/20 "2004-04-11T18:31:19Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > I don’t dispute any of that, **Lynwood**. I’m just stating the interpretation that the nutjobs who argue for the Phineas priesthood use to advance their twisted position. That’s why I put “sin” in quotation marks in discussing the passage. I saw that – I was actually trying to support your sentiment, but did not make that clear. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shall-not-kill-or-thall-shall-not-murder/239295.md?page=2)