# Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself Unless He's Gay **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 28, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288 "2003-09-28T12:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/21 "2003-09-28T20:27:44Z")
The sad thing is, if you leave your church, then that’s one less member who represents love and acceptance. Next time the vote will be 4:1 Weird isn’t it, when there is so much evil - abuse, torture, rape, murder, bigotry, hatred - that religious organisations could concern themselves with, they spend so much time obsessing with sexual issues? Good luck and best wishes whatever you decide. Your own conscience is what counts. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/22 "2003-09-28T21:24:12Z")
Thanks folks. First of all, let me clear up the terminology a bit. A diocese is roughly the administrative equivalent of a county or state; a parish is the equivalent of an individual town. The head of the Pittsburgh Diocese appears ready to split from the national Episcopal Church over this; as far as I know, he’s the only one prepared to do this. The individual parish I grew up in and have been attending for the past several years was still trying to make up its mind, last I heard (I was out of town last Sunday). The feeling is that this is all happening too fast, and we need more time. It’s also a nice, suburban parish, which does a wonderful job of catering to the 2.4 children and an SUV crowd. They’re wonderful people, but that description doesn’t fit me at all. Much as I do love them, it is not the best fit for me. I have no intention of resigning from the Episcopal Church. I may give our Bishop a piece of my mind, but it won’t be the first time I’ve done that. I do, however, plan on switching to a church which is twice as close to me, has activities which better suit me, and, I hope, has more than one single Episcopal man my age in it! You see, while I wholeheartedly support the right of gay people to marry, I would hardly object if this heterosexual Episcopalian managed to fall in love and marry one of these days. 😉 The church I’m now planning on changing to has openly opposed our Bishop on this and I believe they’re in the right. The church I’ve been attending is still making up its mind. In some ways, I’m leaving my parents’ home for a place of my own. **lemon yellow** , the events I referred to took place on this board over a prolonged period of time and came to a head this summer. Since the person most prominently involved no longer posts here, I’d prefer not to provide a link. I’m afraid I, too, was guilty of quite un-Christian behaviour, at least by my standards. I really, really don’t get it. I get the impression that I am supposed to consider the young man who defended me when most people went out of their way to insult me and beat me up more sinful than the people who stole things from me, who treated me like dirt, who made obscene phone calls to me because he is gay. He is also decent, honorable, and kind, and he and his partner recently celebrated their 10 year anniversary. Different people have different gifts and different callings. I acknowledge that. I just wish we could work together to resolve our differences, rather than indulging in such foolish name-calling and schism. Regretably, my Bishop has chosen not to do that. Let me reiterate. It’s not that dioceses throughout the United States have threatened to leave or started procedings to do so; it’s that one diocese is leading the way, and unfortunately, it’s mine. May God have mercy on us all. One form of the Prayers of the People in the Episcopal _Book of Common Prayer_ starts with the person leading it saying, “Father, we pray for your holy Catholic Church;” to which the congregation as a whole replies “That we all may be one.” (Catholic, in this case, refers to worldwide, rather than Roman Catholic, etc.) I’ve been praying that prayer harder than usual recently, and I’ll continue to do so. CJ ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/23 "2003-09-28T22:00:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > If every Christian signed on to this agenda, we would all be worshipping alone. With the thousands upon thousands of individual religious denominations and congregations out there, it’s often getting close! > [@](#): > > This will necessarily involve worshipping together with persons who we disagree with on nontrivial matters of faith. If we cannot do this, and must break from one another at the first provocation, we don’t have a light to go hiding under bushels. To some, this issue is of such vital importance that it is more necessary to preserve their stance on it and break from one another than to preserve unity. > [@](#): > > But as a Christian, one of my chronic faith experiences has been that of being wrong about matters where I had no doubt of my rightness - and it has been a blessing when I have not hastened into actions that would have proved hard to undo. > > This would be such an action. This is why I counsel patience - completely aside from its being one of the fruits of the Spirit. Perhaps so, but that still has to be weighed against the possible dangers of remaining with a group that favors having a bishop who is in homosexual union with another. Perhaps they have weighed their actions carefully and have been led to believe that this is necessary. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![swampbear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampbear/32/467_2.png) [@swampbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampbear)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/24 "2003-09-28T22:03:14Z")
The Bishop of the Diocese of Georgia is also one of those opposed to the affirmation of Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire. He described the events as voting on the “losing side” and as a blow to the unity of the ECUSA. He also further stated that the church should continue to minister to those who are homosexual, just as it would to all “sinners.” Needless to say, as a gay man who **was** a part of the Diocese of Georgia I am not thrilled at being called a sinner. I am no longer a part of the Episcopal Church because of this. I have decided that if no mainstream churches can accept me, it’s their loss. I can be Christian without any of them. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/25 "2003-09-28T23:19:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*If they honestly believe that it is sinful to be in homosexual union with another, and that it deliberately impedes one’s walk with Christ, it is imperative that they disassociate themselves from those who would consider it acceptable for one in a non-celibate homosexual relationship with another to be in a role of church leadership. What else can they do? They must also do as they are led to do in Christ. \*\* I thought we were all sinners. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/26 "2003-09-28T23:32:51Z")
Don’t be silly, **erislover**. Sin is something that happens to other people. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/27 "2003-09-29T01:42:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > With the thousands upon thousands of individual religious denominations and congregations out there, it’s often getting close! Funny, but underneath, it’s really really sad. It certainly demonstrates that over the years, Protestant Christians have been more than a wee bit too quick to separate from one another over what they believed at the time to be an essential point. > [@](#): > > To some, this issue is of such vital importance that it is more necessary to preserve their stance on it and break from one another than to preserve unity. In all the discussion of this issue I’ve seen, there’s been no explanation of why this might be so. Can you help here? > [@](#): > > Perhaps so, but that still has to be weighed against the possible dangers of remaining with a group that favors having a bishop who is in homosexual union with another. And these dangers are…? > [@](#): > > Perhaps they have weighed their actions carefully and have been led to believe that this is necessary. I don’t know. So neither you nor I know why the extreme seriousness and urgency surrounding the need to schism over gay unions/gay bishop. There we are, then. ---
**Author:** ![Thizzlewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@Thizzlewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thizzlewit)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/28 "2003-09-29T02:49:30Z")
> [@](#): > > It certainly demonstrates that over the years, Protestant Christians have been more than a wee bit too quick to separate from one another over what they believed at the time to be an essential point. Unity is important, yes, but truth is equally important. If Christians do not stand up for what they believe to be truth, are they really Christians anymore? Granted, with the phenomenal diversity of theological opinions out there today, the vast majority of them must be wrong… but still, there is a truth out there somewhere. Isn’t it important for each Christian to search for that truth? Isn’t it important for each Christian to defend what truth [s]he has found? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/29 "2003-09-29T03:09:41Z")
What saddens me most about this decision today is that it comes less than 24 hours after it was decided that one of the oldest parishes in the Pittsburgh Episcopal diocese would have to close its doors – not for lack of parishoners but because their church building needs some $200,000 worth of improvements and the diocese cannot (or will not) offer any help to acquire funding for the parish to save its landmark church. It is a bitter irony that as Holy Cross struggles to hold itself together, their bishop has turned a cold shoulder to them to continue his struggle to pull the diocese apart. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/30 "2003-09-29T05:22:14Z")
If I believed that residing in homosexual union was a sin, I believe it would be detrimental to my spiritual well-being to remain in union with a larger body which elevated someone to a post of leadership who engaged in something that was personally believed to be sin. We could rehash all the arguments about why people believe homosexual sex acts to be sinful, but that’s something about which Christians have gone round and round for many years. Frankly, I’m rather convinced that such discussion can often be more harmful than helpful anymore. As for this situation where a diocese is beginning the steps to sever ties and possibly splinter factions will form, it’s definitely sobering to discuss whether the church needs more unity or if it can withstand more splinter factions in the name of truth. Who knows but God? (Now if the Episcopalians split, but we can get a few other groups with fairly close beliefs to merge, would that make it all a wash?) We’re all sinners. But to those who believe homosexual sex is sinful, it would be like calling someone to the post of bishop who says that they joyfully lie to their friends and family in order to spare them hurt, or something like that. One who revels in sin, be it lying, stealing, sexual relations outside marriage, or whatever, isn’t an optimal choice for a post of spiritual leadership. Every spiritual leader sins, but it’s the fact that most are yearning to repent and turn from their sin that is the difference. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/31 "2003-09-29T11:12:13Z")
I’m sorry, **lel** , but I consider the churches who are splitting because of this issue to be exactly morally equivalent to the Baptist churches that split off because of the issue of slavery and formed the Southern Baptists. In 100 years, are these churches going to have to issue an apology for their conduct the way that the Baptists did a few years ago? We can see how eternal _their_ understanding of Scripture to condone or command slavery was, can’t we? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/32 "2003-09-29T12:05:21Z")
[Incidental]: See, **eris**? Evolutionary logic rules everything, even religion. Told ya. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/33 "2003-09-29T12:35:51Z")
Seige, I’m sorry that you have to change churches. Oftentimes a single person has only their congregation to hold on to as extended family. I remember my split from my childhood church, and it was not happy for me. I am even more sad that it is over the issue at hand. The Church leadership has decided that gays are people. Great! It’s just too bad that individual churches can’t figure that one out. God go with you. And I’m proud (can one be proud of an almost total stranger?) that you’ve made this choice. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/34 "2003-09-29T13:20:45Z")
I’m very sorry, **Siege** , that you are having to go through this experience. I know it is not an easy thing to follow what you know to be right against the tide of your home diocese. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/35 "2003-09-29T13:45:08Z")
I applaud all those who are taking a stand based on principle, and a sincere desire to do what God wills. But they aren’t all on one side or the other. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/36 "2003-09-29T15:38:47Z")
Siege said, "How can two adults coming together out of honorable love and respect be a sin? " Does this mean casual sex is a no-no? For both het and homo? ---
**Author:** ![Isabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5a626/32.png) [@Isabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/37 "2003-09-29T19:20:12Z")
We as a nation have done these things to break down the walls of racism and hate: Blacks 1. Freed slaves (Civil War…Lincoln’s proclamation) 2. Passed laws to protect their right to vote 3. Integrated Schools and provided for better educational opportunities 4. de-segregated restaurants, buses, etc 5. de-segregated the arm forces and sports 6. become more acceptant of mixed marriages etc 7. Passed Affirmative Action laws (which I disagree with) to help promote racial diversity Indians: 8. I believe we have come to make history books more PC and less anti-Indian/savages 9. Provided more social programs to right the wrongs of the reservations we forced them into (look at their abilities to get Casinos on their lands etc) Latin’s: 1. become a bi-lingual nation 2. Provide ESL classes and better schooling opportunities etc What have we done for the gays? What can we do for the gays? Why can’t we all just play nice?!?!?!?!?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/38 "2003-09-29T20:42:03Z")
I was waiting for this to come up again, but I thought it would be another week. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > \*\*It’s official, folks. My home diocese has voted to split with the Episcopal Church of the United States of America over the ordination of Bishop Gene Robinson, an openly gay man. Here’s a [link](http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20030928episcopal0928p2.asp). > \*\* That’s not how I read the article, at least not a split in the sense that they have voted to leave the national church. They’ve disassociated themselves from the actions of the Convention, voted to ask Anglican Primates from around the world to intervene, and voted to divert their money from the national church. There’s nothing in there, however, about leaving the Episcopal Church altogether (that I see). That may come, but I don’t think it will come before the meetings in Dallas and England in the next few weeks. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m afraid I’m not surprised, but I am disappointed. The number were about 3:1 in favor of the split. I am sorry. I am sorry that people support denying one of the most fundamental rights and privileges to one subset of people because of whom them love. I am sorry that discrimination against people who are “not like us” continues. I am sorry that this one sin, if sin it is, out of all the sins named explicitly and repeatedly in both the Old Testament and New, should prove such a tremendous stumbling block. \*\* You’re missing the point entirely. The issue is not that homosexuality is somehow a greater sin. The problem these dioceses have is that twofold: 1. Authority. The National Convention tossed out the authority of scripture and traditions of the church. 2. By affirming Bishop Robinson and gay unions, they have called sin something other than sin. Church tradition and scripture teach that sex is a wonderful gift from God – that belongs in the context of a life-long marriage between a man and a woman. > [@](#): > > **The Episcopal Church managed not to split over slavery. Why, then, is our bishop driving us to schism over this?** It seems to me that Pittsburgh, and the dioceses that will follow, are the ones staying. The Episcopal Church is the one that has separated itself from the Anglican Communion. Don’t blame your bishop. > [@](#): > > \*\*How can two adults coming together out of honorable love and respect be a sin? How can we enforce celibacy on one segment of the population when we don’t even insist our priests practice it? \*\* There are plenty of cases where it is considered a sin: If they are married to other people. If they are family members. If they are not married to each other. The fact is, all single people are supposed to be celibate – it’s not some kind of punishment reserved for gay people. > [@](#): > > **I’m prone to rage and tempted to gossip and malice, all of which are sins, yet somehow I get the impression that there are far too many people who would see those temptations as somewhat lesser ones than homosexuality.** But how would you expect people to react if the Episcopal Church voted to endorse rage and gossip and malice? Should they just tolerate it? Or stand up for what they believe to be right? > [@](#): > > I’m afraid I’ve also spent too much time hanging around this message board to buy the “The Bible condemns homosexuality” business any more. Then I’m afraid you _have_ spend too much time here, if you can’t understand that the bible does condemn it. And the Anglican Church has also called it ‘incompatible with Scripture.’ Again, it’s the Episcopal Church that has stepped out, not your diocese. > [@](#): > > \*\*I will also be resigning my membership on the Diocesan Commission on Racism. Right now, it feels far too hypocritical. \*\* I hope you cool down and reconsider. I’ve admired you since I joined these boards, and I would hate to have your input lost to this important Commission. \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/39 "2003-09-29T20:50:42Z")
Quote from the article linked in the OP (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > **Duncan, nevertheless, insisted that is it is premature to talk about a split.** > > “What we are doing is appealing to the primates, who are really the global supreme court in this, to tell us what to do. We are not telling them what to do,” he said. > > Lewis, rector of the bellwether church for Pittsburgh’s liberal Episcopalians, said **his parish was not leaving.** > > “Calvary will flourish and do just fine,” he said, adding that smaller congregations might suffer. > > "Although we have different opinions on human sexuality, **we are absolutely united on the fact that this issue should not divide the church. The issue of whether to stay or leave has never come up. We will always be Episcopalians."** A conservative and liberal spokeperson each said that this is not a split (yet, at least). ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288/40 "2003-09-29T22:16:13Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Skammer \* \*\* The fact is, all single people are supposed to be celibate – it’s not some kind of punishment reserved for gay people. \*\* EXACTLY!!! I cannot understand why people think its a right to have sex with anyone they want. I have been celibate for 9 years and am quite happy about it. I know lots of others too. You’ll find your post flamed because on this board, its just not popular or politically correct. But neither is God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself-unless-hes-gay/204288.md?page=3)