# Thou shalt not kill and hypocratic faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123 "2011-01-02T07:24:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/21 "2011-01-03T07:34:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is just begging the question. Who decides whether a killing is murder? God, presumably. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/22 "2011-01-03T07:39:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The phrase “Thou shalt not kill” does not appear in the Bible. The original wording is “לא תרצח”, which translates to “Don’t murder”. So manslaughter is OK! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/23 "2011-01-03T07:59:40Z")
just wanted to say that my real motivation for posting the OP was: my opinion is that killing is killing regardless of whether a group of people feel they are justified to do that - the percieved justification doesn’t change the definition of ‘kill’ into something else. I am of course hypothesising a literall interpretation of the bible, but then if there is a god that created everything, then is that so strange to expect to take a book with such supposed relevance literally? ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/24 "2011-01-03T08:04:18Z")
sorry to spam but. > [@Alessan](#): > > if you can accept the existence of the God giving the order, can’t you accept the premise that they deserved it? no i cannot accept the existence of god giving the order ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/25 "2011-01-03T08:11:52Z")
> [@ExistentialistDesperado33](#): > > I am of course hypothesising a literall interpretation of the bible, but then if there is a god that created everything, then is that so strange to expect to take a book with such supposed relevance literally? The conclusion does not follow from the assumption. The existence of a creator-god does not imply the truth of any **other** doctrine of any faith, and certainly not the truth of any scripture. And, even the assumption that the Bible is divinely inspired does **not** compel a literal interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/26 "2011-01-03T08:45:56Z")
> [@ExistentialistDesperado33](#): > > my opinion is that killing is killing regardless of whether a group of people feel they are justified to do that - the percieved justification doesn’t change the definition of ‘kill’ into something else. > I am of course hypothesising a literall interpretation of the bible, but then if there is a god that created everything, then is that so strange to expect to take a book with such supposed relevance literally? Except you’re not taking it literally if you translate the commandment as “Don’t kill” rather than “Don’t murder”. You’ve made a translation mistake. And while I respect your opinion that killing is killing regardless of whether a group of people feel they are justified to do that, you have to realize that yours is a minority opinion, and that almost every society draws distinctions between justified killing (killing in war, killing in defense of yourself or someone else, killing in defense of property, capital punishment, sometimes, revenge killings, sometimes, the killing of a child by his father, sometimes, the killing of a slave by his master, sometimes), unjustified but accidental killings (manslaughter, death by misadventure), and unjustified purposeful killings (murder). Pretty much every society makes those kinds of distinctions and treats people differently based on which of those things they’ve done. Usually, they don’t punish, or even regard as heroes, the people in the first category, they only punish the people in the second lightly, and they punish the people in the third severely. Almost all law codes draw a distinction like that, so there’s no wonder that the bible does, with no punishment going to the first group, the existence of “cities of refuge” for the second, and punishment for the third. ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/27 "2011-01-03T08:47:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The conclusion does not follow from the assumption. The existence of a creator-god does not imply the truth of any **other** doctrine of any faith, and certainly not the truth of any scripture. i suppose it is a matter of opinion whether my assumption is incorrect, i mean the scripture exists in the universe which is supposedly created/controlled by god, thats my thinking. its good to hear your thoughts on this too though, thanks ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/28 "2011-01-03T09:19:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Except you’re not taking it literally if you translate the commandment as “Don’t kill” rather than “Don’t murder”. You’ve made a translation mistake. yes point taken about the translation. accepted that ‘murder’ is defined differently to ‘killing’ so it does make a difference in the context. i guess my understanding of the distinction between between killing and murder was muddled. my personal feeling about this distinction is another topic. :smack: but also with my assumtion that the scripture should have a literal meaning because god created everything, then why was "לא תרצח (Dont murder) translated to “thou shalt not kill” incorrectly? I realise you will say my assumption of expecting a literal translation is wrong but it still bugs me in the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/29 "2011-01-03T09:23:17Z")
Blame King James I (IV of Scotland). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/30 "2011-01-03T11:13:10Z")
I think the problem is not how, in a modern context, we decide how to reconcile the Bible with the necessity (or otherwise) of killing people _today_, but rather, how we resolve the fact that the Bible itself contains lots of killing, apparently ordained by the same authority that dictated the ten commandments - and only a few chapters after the commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/31 "2011-01-03T14:22:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As a side note - within the context of the story, the Amalekites were inherently evil, one and all. I mean, if you can accept the existence of the God giving the order, can’t you accept the premise that they deserved it? Doesn’t that go against the notion of free will? If they were inherently evil, then God made them that way. Why did he make them that way? And really, the babies were evil? Seriously? The babies deserved it? No, I can’t accept that the babies deserved it. God even told the Israelites to kill the animals, by the way. Were the animals inherently evil too? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/32 "2011-01-03T14:41:27Z")
Having never met an Amalekite, an Amalekite baby or an Amelekite animal, I can’t really tell you. They’re metaphors, after all - their sole purpose of existance is to be killed. Note, however, what the story implies - that genocide requires an executive order direct from the Big Guy himself. When was the last time God gave a direct order? 2500 years ago? 3000 years? The Bible shows us a lot of things that only God is allowed to do, which means, by inference, that man is \*not \*allowed to do them. That’s the whole point of “one rule for me, one rule for you”: by showing that God is greater than the laws He gave humanity, it stresses the point that no man is, less he confuse himself with God. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/33 "2011-01-03T17:17:30Z")
It makes no sense to say that “God is greater than his laws.” That means his laws are arbitrary and have no inherent moral value in themselves. It also means that the Bible is lying when it says that people have the same knowledge of good and evil as God. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/34 "2011-01-03T17:27:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is just begging the question. Who decides whether a killing is murder? When God told the Israelites to kill Amelekite infants (to kill ALL Amelekite infants and children), was that killing or murder? Right. “Murder” is a human construct, particularized to any given culture and it’s morals. So when god says, “Don’t _murder_,” he’s really just saying, “You can kill, as long as you cover your ass with your choice of modesty.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/35 "2011-01-03T17:32:22Z")
Exactly. It’s pretty easy to rationalize killing people as “not murder,” especially on a state level. Of course, when other people do it to you, it’s _always_ murder. The Ft. Hood attack was an assault on a military installation and military personnel. Murder or warfare? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/36 "2011-01-03T17:39:54Z")
So you contend that all killing is murder? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/37 "2011-01-03T17:44:12Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Right. “Murder” is a human construct, particularized to any given culture and it’s morals. So when god says, “Don’t _murder_,” he’s really just saying, “You can kill, as long as you cover your ass with your choice of modesty.” But the Ten Commandmens are a legal code, not a moral code. They don’t say what’s right and what’s wrong - they say what you are and are not allowed to do. They’re arbitrary in the sense that any legal system is arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/38 "2011-01-03T17:53:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So you contend that all killing is murder? I contend that it’s easy to rationalize a lot of killing as not really being “murder” if it suits us. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/39 "2011-01-03T17:57:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > …they say what you are and are not allowed to do… The question here is that is depends on what _humans_ call it. If’s purely semantics. So: “You’re not allowed to do X. It’s up to the lower courts to decide if what you’re doing is in fact ‘X.’” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/40 "2011-01-03T18:01:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I contend that it’s easy to rationalize a lot of killing as not really being “murder” if it suits us. So you agree that some killing is not murder? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123.md?page=3)