# Thou shalt not kill and hypocratic faith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123 "2011-01-02T07:24:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/41 "2011-01-03T18:03:59Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > The question here is that is depends on what _humans_ call it. If’s purely semantics. So: “You’re not allowed to do X. It’s up to the lower courts to decide if what you’re doing is in fact ‘X.’” The Ten Commandments were designed as the basis of a legal code that would be enforced by human beings. In other words, the law said “Don’t Murder”, but it was up to the tribal elders, king, Sanhedrin or whatever to decide whether or not a certain act constituted murder. Just like any other legal system, really. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/42 "2011-01-03T18:12:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So you agree that some killing is not murder? Sure, but my boundaries would be as subjective as anyone else’s. I would certainly call some killings murder that others would not. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/43 "2011-01-03T18:25:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is just begging the question. Who decides whether a killing is murder? When God told the Israelites to kill Amelekite infants (to kill ALL Amelekite infants and children), was that killing or murder? I have to disagree with this point. If we reject the notion that God gave us laws, then inherently, whatever his interpretation of them is, it is irrelevant. If we accept the notion that God gave us laws, then it seems illogical to me to reject his interpretations of those laws. It seems to me that your begging of the question is a situation in which we accept the law given down not to murder, but reject the interpretation of what constitutes murder. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/44 "2011-01-03T18:28:17Z")
But he didn’t give us any interpretation, so we just have to guess - and we always guess in the way that’s most convenient to us. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/45 "2011-01-03T18:48:53Z")
Fair enough. However, I think any matter of law or morality is always going to involve some matter of guess work. As you point out, for a given killing, barring the most extreme cases, it’s difficult for society to determine whether or not that individual should be punished and how much. My point was more at the idea that, if you believe in God, then it must not be murder, and if you don’t, it may or may not be, but it doesn’t matter because you don’t accept the idea of the divine law. As such, attempting to apply our own unclear perspective of what murder is to the actions of God is inherently meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/46 "2011-01-03T18:58:30Z")
> [@ExistentialistDesperado33](#): > > The abrahamic religions all stem from a basis whereby moses laid out the ten commandments. > one of these: Thou shalt not kill. > > The question i would like to ask of those who have a abrahamic faith (and also opinions of others) is: > > How can religious war (or war in general) be justified by those who claim to be faithful and support the idea that scripture is god breathed ? > > Thankyou in advance for any replies as I would like to know peoples views 🙂 I’m mostly here to express my distaste for the term _god-breathed_. I’m not a Christian, but I don’t think there’s a conflict. The _kill_ in the commandment you refer to is better translated as _murder_, since God goes on to tell the Israelites to kill tons of folk. Evidently he burped while exhaling that order. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/47 "2011-01-03T19:18:06Z")
Not only that, but the same legal code that says “Do not murder” also lays out a list of capital crimes, including murder. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/48 "2011-01-03T19:38:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m guessing the OP means “hypocritical.” Hypocrisy has nothing to do with Hippocrates, the Greek physician who said “first, do no harm.” Both concepts are unrelated to the hippopotamus, hip-hop, and the hippocampus. I thought this might be another abortion thread. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/49 "2011-01-03T19:55:15Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I have to disagree with this point. If we reject the notion that God gave us laws, then inherently, whatever his interpretation of them is, it is irrelevant. If we accept the notion that God gave us laws, then it seems illogical to me to reject his interpretations of those laws. It seems to me that your begging of the question is a situation in which we accept the law given down not to murder, but reject the interpretation of what constitutes murder. I’m not sure of this. One could easily stipulate that a supernatural entity exists and issued the laws in question, but that he, she, or it is wrong in giving the laws, in giving definitions, or both. And I think it’s fair to take the entities behavior after the law-giving in account. The genocide of the Amalekites reveals Yahweh to be villainous. ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/50 "2011-01-03T21:58:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The phrase “Thou shalt not kill” does not appear in the Bible. The original wording is “לא תרצח”, which translates to “Don’t murder”. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The existence of a creator-god does not imply the truth of any **other** doctrine of any faith, and certainly not the truth of any scripture. > > And, even the assumption that the Bible is divinely inspired does **not** compel a literal interpretation. > [@Alessan](#): > > Blame King James I (IV of Scotland). So are we to take the translated king james version (and probably other tranlations) as innacurate but the validity of the original text is to be taken as objective truth? it seems to me if someone accepts the possibility that the translated is invalid, it should be no great leap for that same person to accept the possibility the original text is also invalid (here’s hoping)! it reeks of personal bias! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/51 "2011-01-03T22:01:37Z")
Nobody said the original was objectively true. But it’s fair to point out that flaws in the translation don’t reflect on the original. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/52 "2011-01-03T22:17:49Z")
> [@ExistentialistDesperado33](#): > > it seems to me if someone accepts the possibility that the translated is invalid, it should be no great leap for that same person to accept the possibility the original text is also invalid (here’s hoping)! But the OP is concerned with those who take the original texts as “god breathed”, so I don’t think that applies in this case. Unless you are arguing that we don’t actually have access to “the original texts”. ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/53 "2011-01-03T23:40:28Z")
…what im saying is that for some belief in a higher supernatural entity has desensitised the morality of killing/war/punishment. It does hinge entirely on what individuals believe, but from the perspective of someone who does not have this belief in a higher supernatural entity it is difficult not to have an issue. I would say that in this regard I am being critical of the justification of authority of modern society. ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/54 "2011-01-03T23:50:13Z")
maybe i’m being completely idealistic but it comes out of wanting a positive change within society. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/55 "2011-01-04T03:28:13Z")
> [@ExistentialistDesperado33](#): > > maybe i’m being completely idealistic but it comes out of wanting a positive change within society. 🙂 Well? Would you mind possibly stopping the poorly executed Socratic inquiry and simply state your thesis? ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/56 "2011-01-04T04:51:52Z")
ok i’ll try and wrap up my thoughts on this… My motivation for starting the thread was that initially (before being informed of the mistranslation in king james bible) I considered it a contradiction that the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ was not reflected in the actions of peoples and society of biblical times and until this day. It was something I couln’t reconcile beforehand so I thought It worthwhile posing the question, if I hadn’t asked the question I would not have been able resolve this. I should explain that I used to have a ’ faith’ but then re-evaluated my beliefs. I am no doubt biased the other way now and I will openly admit that. I still doubt the probability to gain that faith that I once had but It would be entirely impossible without knowing about the translation error. So the point was resolved, (btw I wanted to close the thread at after post #29 as I thought it was exhausted but I didn’t know how :o ) that’s when I started to muddy the waters a bit(sorry) but I will try and explain my posts from then on… ``` My point from then on was that for some belief in a higher supernatural entity has desensitised the morality of killing/war/punishment, and that i was calling to question the justification of certain actions and the belief systems that are used to justify them. ``` Actually I am asking people to question how beliefs are used to justify certain behaviours in society? and what are the implications of this? ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/57 "2011-01-04T05:54:44Z")
…and isn’t the validity of a belief driven behaviour, directly related to the validity of the belief? ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/58 "2011-01-04T11:23:16Z")
and finally, if the invalid belief continues to drive negative behaviour like war/genocide etc without being properly questioned then: Society will be forever stuck in a pattern of destrucive behaviour! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/59 "2011-01-04T12:45:58Z")
> [@ExistentialistDesperado33](#): > > and finally, if the invalid belief continues to drive negative behaviour like war/genocide etc without being properly questioned then: > Society will be forever stuck in a pattern of destrucive behaviour! Since societies that have been officially atheist (like the Soviet Union and China) have had no problems with war and genocidal behavior, why do you think eliminating religion will have any affect on human nature? ---
**Author:** ![ExistentialistDesperado33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a183cd/32.png) [@ExistentialistDesperado33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExistentialistDesperado33)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123/60 "2011-01-04T13:33:40Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Since societies that have been officially atheist (like the Soviet Union and China) have had no problems with war and genocidal behavior, why do you think eliminating religion will have any affect on human nature? people always cite the soviet union and china as reasons why alternative political systems have failed, i dont agree that it sensible to reference these everytime as an argument against political change, because these systems have failed (just 2 instances) is it sensible to use that as the yardstick against possible success? (this seems like another cycle we are stuck in) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-kill-and-hypocratic-faith/566123.md?page=4)