# Thou shalt not steal even a little bit, but killing is probably OK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380 "2009-05-23T04:49:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/21 "2009-05-25T02:09:00Z")
**magellan01** , the “fair tax”/national sales tax would only tax consumption, not investment. This is an idea that’s been floating around the US right for a long time. I know, I used to be a regular reader of National Review when Wm F. Buckley was still alive, & it was pet idea of at least one of the contributors. The problem then is, that you don’t really tax everyone equally. You tax those who invest less more than than those who invest more. Which appeals to those who think that a) the tax code is supposed to be used to reinforce “good” behavior rather than raise revenue, & that b) investment is morally superior to consumption. But in effect, the “fair tax” would drop all revenue collection on retailers, deforming the economy more than an income tax. Got a connection to buy wholesale? You can avoid some taxes. More importantly, if you spend your money on stocks & bonds to get richer, you pay no taxes at all on that. Meanwhile, the working poor who can’t afford to invest as much just fall further behind. [del]Dio is right.[/del] The “fair tax” is a scam bought into by those too poor to think of what it doesn’t tax that they don’t buy. Edit: Oh, Dio was condemning the flat tax as a scam. Well, I used to be very anti-flat tax, but I could accept it if paired with a generous negative income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/22 "2009-05-25T02:40:27Z")
If the OP is trying to say that killing is at least as bad or even worse than stealing, there’s no debate. I’m sure there is an extremley small and vocal group in the US that considers taxes illegal at their core. But their number is so microscopic, expecially considering the whole world, that debating it makes little sense. Some tax rates may be excessive and the use of those taxes may be deplorable, but still, I think the number of people the OP is trying to debate about is too smal to bother. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/23 "2009-05-25T09:40:15Z")
Well, if the last 8 years have taught me anything, it’s that the Republican party and Conservatives by extension have no moral compunctions about _stealing or kiliing_. All predicated on lying, of course. It’s all OK with enough moral relativism and self righteous nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/24 "2009-05-25T09:47:13Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Well, if the last 8 years have taught me anything, it’s that the Republican party and Conservatives by extension have no moral compunctions about _stealing or kiliing_. All predicated on lying, of course. > It’s all OK with enough moral relativism and self righteous nationalism. Enough AMERICAN moral relativism and self righteous nationalism. It’s of course completely different when someone else does it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/25 "2009-05-26T16:26:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus said pay your taxes, so, as far as Christians are concerned, that should be the end of it right there. Actually He did not say that, but said: [QUOTE=Matthew 22:21] “Caesar’s,” they replied. Then he said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” [/QUOTE] If it is Caesar’s then you must submit to that authority and pay, but for those set free be Jesus are free indeed, including taxes, as they are above all ruling authority except God and exempt: > [@](#): > > Matthew 17:27 > “Then the sons are exempt,” Jesus said to him. “But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.” Additionally such a person has no possessions but has given everything he has and everything he is to God, all income is the Lords. The Father is the one who owns everything and will compensate for things like taxes, sons (plural) are truly exempt, if they physically pay, such as income taxes, the Father will compensate for that unlawful tax on one of God’s children. Again those who are not fully surrendered to Jesus, but on their way to it, will be required to pay to authorities. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/26 "2009-05-26T17:04:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If it is Caesar’s then you must submit to that authority and pay, but for those set free be Jesus are free indeed, including taxes, as they are above all ruling authority except God and exempt: That clearly goes against both that statement AND other teachings that clearly say that Christians are subject to secular rulers (which it must be remember in the New Testament times were all non-Christian, and for Christians outside of Palestine, Pagan). In secular matters Christans should obey the law of the land (most specifically paying taxes), and respect authority. In spiritual matters, they exempt from all authority except God, but CLEARLY that does not include paying taxes > [@](#): > > Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. That is one of the most galling things about the current politicization of Christianity, never mind whether the Consitution supports separation of church and state. THE BIBLE supports separation of church and state. Christianity (as represent by the New Testament) is a set of teaching intended for individuals (or at most small groups of believers) to use to run their lives, in a society at large that is inherently non-Christian. The rules that Christains use to manage their own lives should NOT be used to JUDGE others, most especialy non Christians. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/27 "2009-05-26T19:18:00Z")
Most of the really hard core anti-tax folks I know are Libertarian types…and they are ALSO against US foreign adventures like Iraq. In fact, most of them are so isolationist that they don’t think we should have ANY sort of offensively deploy-able military at all…just a Coast Guard and militia formations for local defense (mostly against the government). They also want the (federal) government to go back to being what it was originally intended by the FF. So, yes, while I do know some people like the OP describes on the anti-tax side I don’t know very many who are ‘conservatives’, or who are hypocrites wrt their tax stance. They are nuts, not hypocrites… -XT ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/28 "2009-05-28T23:08:02Z")
**kanicbird** , that may well be the most outrageous post I’ve seen from you. Are you actually saying that taxes are unlawful in the eyes of God? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/29 "2009-05-29T17:46:07Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > **kanicbird** , that may well be the most outrageous post I’ve seen from you. Are you actually saying that taxes are unlawful in the eyes of God? No, taxes should be paid for those subject to that authority. For someone who is a child of the King of Kings there is no state authority over them at all - the only authority is the Father. Not all Christians are at this level of full surrender and as such are subject to such governmental authorities and are required to pay taxes and must continue as scripture points out. But once God has declared you His child you are above that authority and if they do collect any tax from you it will be reimbursed as they have no right to tax the Kings children and servants. It is much like how a federal agent has authority over a state cop, once you are set free you are a agent of the King of the universe and above all worldly rulers. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/30 "2009-05-29T17:50:43Z")
And if the IRS comes for you, are you confident enough to use that in court? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/31 "2009-05-29T17:54:49Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > That clearly goes against both that statement AND other teachings that clearly say that Christians are subject to secular rulers (which it must be remember in the New Testament times were all non-Christian, and for Christians outside of Palestine, Pagan). In secular matters Christans should obey the law of the land (most specifically paying taxes), and respect authority. All this is true, but the question is who has authority over the King’s child. > [@](#): > > In spiritual matters, they exempt from all authority except God, but CLEARLY that does not include paying taxes Actually it does as the scripture verse of Jesus saying the sons are exempt directly refers to a tax that is not required under biblical law, and is a man enforced tax. > [@](#): > > That is one of the most galling things about the current politicization of Christianity, never mind whether the Consitution supports separation of church and state. THE BIBLE supports separation of church and state. Christianity (as represent by the New Testament) is a set of teaching intended for individuals (or at most small groups of believers) to use to run their lives, in a society at large that is inherently non-Christian. The rules that Christains use to manage their own lives should NOT be used to JUDGE others, most especialy non Christians. The NT is not a set of teachings, it is a description of the relationship between God and man which is now possible through Jesus. The set of teachings is the OT, a written code that one must follow. We are permitted to judge, Jesus Himself judged calling some sons of the devil, overturning money changers tables and the like. Paul handed people over to Satan and pointed out false apostles. Jesus commended a church for finding some apostels to be false (Rev 2:2). We are not only permitted to judge, we are suppose to and have to, as it is not the believer that is judging it is God through the believer. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/32 "2009-05-29T17:56:47Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And if the IRS comes for you, are you confident enough to use that in court? Actually yes, but so far it’s been pay, pray for reimbursement and God reaches into the US Treasury and returns what was taken from me. Just as Jesus physically paid the temple tax, the money did not come from him. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/33 "2009-05-29T18:08:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, taxes should be paid for those subject to that authority. For someone who is a child of the King of Kings there is no state authority over them at all - the only authority is the Father. Not all Christians are at this level of full surrender and as such are subject to such governmental authorities and are required to pay taxes and must continue as scripture points out. But once God has declared you His child you are above that authority and if they do collect any tax from you it will be reimbursed as they have no right to tax the Kings children and servants. Having a higher authority doesn’t remove all those below it. You’re subject to a cop, despite there being higher cops in rank; you’re subject to your boss, despite him likely having people higher up than him. Especially if you’re still prepared to accept those things which are the result of that lower authority, I really don’t see how you can’t consider that reasonable at all. If you’re going to be reimbursed your taxes, then surely by taking advantage of the fruits of taxes in full knowledge that you have not paid for them you’re committing theft and fraud? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380/34 "2009-05-29T22:00:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually it does as the scripture verse of Jesus saying the sons are exempt directly refers to a tax that is not required under biblical law, and is a man enforced tax. It shows JESUS is exempt from that particular tax (but pays it anyway, so as not to cause offense). As shown by Mathew 22:21, the rest of us clearly are not > [@](#): > > The NT is not a set of teachings, it is a description of the relationship between God and man which is now possible through Jesus. The set of teachings is the OT, Both testaments contain both narrative and instruction. The big difference is the OT describes a covenant between an entire people and god, the NT describes a conventant between God and each INDIVIDUAL person in the world. > [@](#): > > OT, a written code that one must follow. So you don’t eat shell fish ? If you die will your will you expect her to marry your brother (or vice versa). > [@](#): > > We are permitted to judge, Jesus Himself judged calling some sons of the devil, overturning money changers tables and the like. Jesus is permitted judge obviously. > [@](#): > > Paul handed people over to Satan and pointed out false apostles. Jesus commended a church for finding some apostles to be false (Rev 2:2).. There is a different to pointing out the false teachings of fellow Christians (for example pointing out the fallacies of politicized right-wing Christians), and judging non Christians. Christians explicitly NOT permitted to judge, and DEFINITELY not permitted to judge non-Christians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-shalt-not-steal-even-a-little-bit-but-killing-is-probably-ok/497380.md?page=1)