# thou, thee, thine **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 4, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240 "2012-07-04T20:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/21 "2012-07-10T17:40:56Z")
OK, 99.999% of Southerners only use “y’all” as a plural. Evidently there are a few here and there that 1) don’t follow the standard usage, 2) have started using the plural as a formalizer like the Romance languages do (note that all of the examples given were between relative strangers), 3) have been misunderstood (see below) or 4) they’re transplants that got confused and just use it incorrectly. Most times when I’ve had people tell me that someone used “y’all” as a singular, when they’ve gotten down to specific exact cases, the hearer misunderstood the usage. For instance, there are one or two specific turns of phrase in which “y’all” is always used, regardless of the number of people addressed. But it’s really a figure of speech rather than usage as a singular. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/22 "2012-07-10T18:23:14Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > That “y’all” is only used for 2nd person plural is a complete myth. > [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > It is only a _complete_ myth if you have checked every village in the entire South. No. Disproving the claim that it is ONLY used for plural requires just a single counter-example. As for thou/ you, I heard it was because of the invention of the printing press. English had a letter [thorn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_%28letter%29.), pronounced _th_. So the word thou would be written as thorn-u. The presses imported from Germany had no letter thorn, so the printers used a Y instead. Thus, \*thou \*would be printed as _you_, but still originally pronounced as _thou_. And later the pronunciation changed to match the written form. That’s what I heard. I can’t find any direct cites, but wiki shows that \*the \*was printed as _Ye_, so it seems plausible. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/23 "2012-07-11T18:35:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > No. Disproving the claim that it is ONLY used for plural requires just a single counter-example. > As for thou/ you, I heard it was because of the invention of the printing press. > English had a letter [thorn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_%28letter%29.), pronounced _th_. So the word thou would be written as thorn-u. The presses imported from Germany had no letter thorn, so the printers used a Y instead. Thus, \*thou \*would be printed as _you_, but still originally pronounced as _thou_. And later the pronunciation changed to match the written form. > > That’s what I heard. I can’t find any direct cites, but wiki shows that \*the \*was printed as _Ye_, so it seems plausible. The chronology doesn’t really work out; _þ_ vanished long before _thou_ did. The only reason that the phantom _ye_ for _the_ survived was that _þ[sup]e[/sup]_ remained as a popular abbreviation long after _þ_ was out of general use. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/24 "2012-07-11T19:35:15Z")
I just went to YouTube and watched a handful of Paula Deen clips. Only one did she use the word _y’all_, and in all cases she was addressing the audience. Aside - those clips were painful to watch. Her accent is painful to listen to. Then there was making donuts out of canned biscuits. Really? I thought you put sugar in donut dough, like a cake? Biscuits? Then there was the clip where her son (I presume) is going to tell us how to make meatloaf, and she’s in the background trying to watch TV and yelling at him to be quiet or she’ll miss her show. And they aired that shit? Oh, and deep fried bacon. And her dog’s name is, apparently, O **d** is. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/25 "2012-07-12T03:48:08Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > The chronology doesn’t really work out; _þ_ vanished long before _thou_ did. The only reason that the phantom _ye_ for _the_ survived was that _þ[sup]e[/sup]_ remained as a popular abbreviation long after _þ_ was out of general use. Perhaps the spelling _þe_ for “the” persisted longest in outdoor signage, since that presumably was painted by hand, and therefore less susceptible to the vagaries of printing fonts. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/26 "2012-07-12T03:56:17Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Perhaps the spelling _þe_ for “the” persisted longest in outdoor signage, since that presumably was painted by hand, and therefore less susceptible to the vagaries of printing fonts. It seems fitting to point out that the handwritten or hand-painted rendition of thorn does look a lot more like the letter “y”. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/27 "2012-07-12T12:00:18Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Perhaps this explains why the stereotypical Quaker usage is “wrong” with respect to the way the pronouns were used when they had still been generally current in the language. The “wrong” usage by Quakers (using thee for the nominative rather than thou) dates back to at least as far as the mid-19th century. I remember reading an article on this in an old _Notes & Queries_ from the 1850s or 60s in which it was commented on. Before seeing that I used to think it was Hollywood getting it wrong (in films like _Friendly Persuasion_, etc) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/28 "2012-07-13T04:23:38Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The “wrong” usage by Quakers (using thee for the nominative rather than thou) dates back to at least as far as the mid-19th century. I remember reading an article on this in an old _Notes & Queries_ from the 1850s or 60s in which it was commented on. Before seeing that I used to think it was Hollywood getting it wrong (in films like _Friendly Persuasion_, etc) The other “wrong” thing about Quaker usage is that the modern third-person-singular conjugation is used with verbs in the second-person-singular. The movie _Philadelphia Story_ has an interesting scene that points out the difference. In a small town library, James Stewart’s character Mike responds to the Quaker librarian’s “What does thee wish?” with “Dost thou have a washroom”. Strictly speaking, Mike’s usage probably isn’t much more correct, because the use of “to do” as an auxiliary in the interrogative. Still, it points up how an educated person in those days would have used it. (In those days, just about everyone who made it through college read Chaucer at some point.) I’ve also noticed that in the _ST:TOS_ episode “Amok Time”, the Vulcan ruler T’Pau uses Quaker English (“Thee speaks?”). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/29 "2012-07-13T05:02:56Z")
FWIW, in central Virginia 50 years ago “y’all” could be either singular or plural. There seemed to be a slight pronunciation difference, too. Don’t recall hearing “all y’all” ever. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/30 "2012-07-16T17:14:45Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The other “wrong” thing about Quaker usage is that the modern third-person-singular conjugation is used with verbs in the second-person-singular. The movie _Philadelphia Story_ has an interesting scene that points out the difference. In a small town library, James Stewart’s character Mike responds to the Quaker librarian’s “What does thee wish?” with “Dost thou have a washroom”. Strictly speaking, Mike’s usage probably isn’t much more correct, because the use of “to do” as an auxiliary in the interrogative. Still, it points up how an educated person in those days would have used it. (In those days, just about everyone who made it through college read Chaucer at some point.) > > I’ve also noticed that in the _ST:TOS_ episode “Amok Time”, the Vulcan ruler T’Pau uses Quaker English (“Thee speaks?”). They continued that usage in some of the books too. I believe it’s their formal way of speaking; Spock never uses it. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/31 "2012-07-16T17:16:59Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > FWIW, in central Virginia 50 years ago “y’all” could be either singular or plural. There seemed to be a slight pronunciation difference, too. Don’t recall hearing “all y’all” ever. Ever heard a Beastie Boys song? “Listen all yall; it’s a sabotage!” Of course they aren’t southern so they don’t count. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/2acd7d/32.png) [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Tilt_Boogie)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/32 "2012-07-16T18:03:38Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > A French friend has told me that there’s an increasing use of “tu” instead of “Vous” in France. This is true. I’m Paris at least once a month and it’s now noticeable. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/33 "2012-07-20T01:26:04Z")
> [@Sister\_Vigilante](#): > > They continued that usage in some of the books too. I believe it’s their formal way of speaking; Spock never uses it. Nor does a young T’Pau in _Enterprise_. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/34 "2012-07-20T01:27:21Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Strictly speaking, Mike’s usage probably isn’t much more correct, because the use of “to do” as an auxiliary in the interrogative. Normally I wouldn’t pedantically point out the lack of a verb in your latter clause, but in this case it’s impeding my ability to understand what you mean. Why is “Dost thou have” incorrect? Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/35 "2012-07-20T19:02:37Z")
“Dost thou have…?” is not technically bad grammar, but it’s bad writing. Someone who lived at the time when _thou_ was still current would generally have said “Hast thou…?” instead. It’s like saying, today, “I do have…” where “I have…” would do. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/36 "2012-07-23T02:11:08Z")
I live in South Carolina, right below Charlotte, NC. I have heard locals (not implants) use “y’all” to address both singular and plural “you”. I’ve been singularly addressed by someone from the south using “y’all” as far back as 1980, when a counter-worker at Dairy Queen in Johnson City, TN, addressed my singular self as I walked in the door with the term “y’all.” Thus, anyone who asserts that Southerners only use “y’all” as a plural is making a false statement. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/37 "2012-07-24T02:10:45Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > “Dost thou have…?” is not technically bad grammar, but it’s bad writing. Someone who lived at the time when _thou_ was still current would generally have said “Hast thou…?” instead. It’s like saying, today, “I do have…” where “I have…” would do. So it would be wrong if you were trying to replicate 16th-century English speech, but for 20th-century speech incorporating “thou” and “thee” it’s just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/38 "2012-08-13T18:42:11Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Gosh, kids having a less pronounced accent than one of their parents? Yeah, that never happens in real life. :rolleyes: > > [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%27all) quotes H. L. Mencken: “Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, to be sure, you-all indicates a plural, implicit if not explicit, and thus means, when addressed to a single person, ‘you and your folks’ or the like, but the hundredth time it is impossible to discover any such extension of meaning.” > > Powers &8^] HL is out of date, or just ain’t from 'round hea. As a Yankee, I noticed very clearly the tendency for many Southerners to use “y’all” in the singular, and particularly when talking to someone they didn’t know (a “formal” usage). Anyone who hasn’t heard “all y’all” probably also hasn’t heard “might could”, and has no business talking about common usage in Southeastern US. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/39 "2012-08-13T18:48:35Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > OK, 99.999% of Southerners only use “y’all” as a plural. > > Evidently there are a few here and there that 1) don’t follow the standard usage, 2) have started using the plural as a formalizer like the Romance languages do (note that all of the examples given were between relative strangers), 3) have been misunderstood (see below) or 4) they’re transplants that got confused and just use it incorrectly. > singular. SInce you’re quoting numbers, please cite your source. My experience differs dramatically from yours. I live in Durham, NC, and often hear the singular usage mentioned above, and most often in exactly that situation: a server or salesperson talking to a customer. Thus my inference that it’s used as a formal form. Maybe that’s not how it is where you live. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/40 "2012-08-13T18:57:28Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I live in South Carolina, right below Charlotte, NC. You live _underground_?? Cool! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240.md?page=3)