# thou, thee, thine **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [July 4, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240 "2012-07-04T20:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/41 "2012-08-13T19:01:27Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The “wrong” usage by Quakers (using thee for the nominative rather than thou) dates back to at least as far as the mid-19th century. I remember reading an article on this in an old _Notes & Queries_ from the 1850s or 60s in which it was commented on. Before seeing that I used to think it was Hollywood getting it wrong (in films like _Friendly Persuasion_, etc) I noticed that Mark Twain clearly captures that usage in dialog (using “thee” as subject as well as object, or any case at all). IIRC, he even uses “thee’s” as the possessive. Whether that’s an accurate reflection of 1850’s usage, or amplification for humorous puporses, is left to the reader as an exercise. This appears in his first novel, “The Guilded Age,” among others. ---
**Author:** ![Charmbrights](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@Charmbrights](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charmbrights)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/42 "2012-08-14T11:52:26Z")
As to formal and informal forms of address in the Queen’s English (as opposed to tother countries’ versions), I was brought up in an area where thou and thee were in common use (and still can sometimes be heard today). The rule for deciding whether one can use the informal was very clear: Thou thees them as thous thee. Incidentally does anyone know of any other pronoun with a verb form? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/43 "2012-08-14T12:49:34Z")
One thing I’ve wondered, does a redneck Quaker address a group of people as “Th’all”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/44 "2012-08-15T03:24:19Z")
> [@Charmbrights](#): > > As to formal and informal forms of address in the Queen’s English (as opposed to tother countries’ versions), I was brought up in an area where thou and thee were in common use (and still can sometimes be heard today). The rule for deciding whether one can use the informal was very clear: > > Thou thees them as thous thee. > > Incidentally does anyone know of any other pronoun with a verb form? I suppose any pronoun could be substituted, though only “we” would be likely to appear in an actual conversation. I take it you’re from the North, perhaps Yorkshire? I remember Dorothy L. Sayers giving, “Th’art fagged, lad,” as something that might actually be heard in her day, and “Thou art brassed-off, methinks,” as a Horrid Example of Getting It Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Charmbrights](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@Charmbrights](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charmbrights)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/45 "2012-08-15T08:12:02Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > … I take it you’re from the North, perhaps Yorkshire? … Not nowadays, but as a child I was brought up in Derbyshire. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/46 "2012-08-16T19:51:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One thing I’ve wondered, does a redneck Quaker address a group of people as “Th’all”? Hah! ---
**Author:** ![RoniaBorkason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9dc877/32.png) [@RoniaBorkason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoniaBorkason)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/47 "2012-08-16T20:23:55Z")
> [@Charmbrights](#): > > Incidentally does anyone know of any other pronoun with a verb form? The Spanish informal “tu” - “tutear”, to address someone in the informal (with connotations of sassing them) (Aghast grannie: “me tuteo!”/“she you-ed me!”) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/48 "2012-08-16T20:44:33Z")
> [@RoniaBorkason](#): > > The Spanish informal “tu” - “tutear”, to address someone in the informal (with connotations of sassing them) > > (Aghast grannie: “me tuteo!”/“she you-ed me!”) There are similar verbs in French (tutoyer) and German (duzen). However, they don’t have the same form as the pronouns (tu/toi and du/dich, respectively), because they need their languages’ verb endings (-er and -en, respectively). English doesn’t limit the infinitive form of verbs in that way, so you can just use the straight “thee” or “thou” as a verb. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/49 "2012-08-16T21:29:03Z")
[2009 Language Log article on the singular ya’ll issue](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2009). TLDR: It appears the best evidence is that ya’ll can be used in the singular at least in Oklahoma–but the evidence isn’t very decisive because it’s based on self-report. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/50 "2012-08-17T15:47:55Z")
Here’s a comment from that article that explains my observations: > [@](#): > > I’m from North Carolina and I only realized I used singular y’all a few years ago when I was working at a Starbucks and noticed that I’d ask both groups and individual customers something along the lines of “What can we do for y’all today?” So I likely fell into the usage as part of a rhythm or due to frequency of usage of canned phrases. I don’t know if I used it before working at Starbucks and because I’ve been living up in DC for almost 2 years now, and as I don’t address people with questions like that with any sort of regularity, I don’t know if I still actively use singular y’all. > > I am interested in the hypothesis that it’s an unconscious badge of distinction, though. I’m from Durham, and that area has a very high Yankee influx population (due to the universities and the Research Triangle), so it could have been a result of my wanting to emphasize my nativeness. But that doesn’t explain the popularity of “all y’all”, which is generally used when someone is talking to one person but wants to explicitly include everyone. As a Yankee living in NC, I use “y’all” as a plural, partly because it’s useful, and partly because it’s fun. No doubt I sound like a Damn Yankee trying to sound like I live here (only 12 years now.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/51 "2012-08-17T18:39:50Z")
The English lack of _thou_ can be a translator’s nightmare. Sometimes the change from _you_ to _thou_ (or the reverse) can be a significant moment in a character’s journey (it seems to turn up often in Ibsen), and translators are forced to fall back on great thumping substitutes like, “Oh, _do_ call me ‘Suzie’, darling!” ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240/52 "2012-08-17T20:38:29Z")
I take it that would be in place of a line something like, “Oh, you can call me ‘Suzie’, darling!”, i.e. he called her Miss whatever, and she is personalizing it. Funny, they talk in that article about the singular use of Y’all in Oklahoma, but I never encountered it in Oklahoma. I have in Houston, but the situations are typically a customer service rep (like restaurant hostess), so it’s conceivable they’re falling into rote language patterns and not realizing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thou-thee-thine/627240.md?page=2)