# Thoughts on Fitna? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975 "2008-03-27T21:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/1 "2008-03-27T21:45:27Z")
Has anyone been following Geert Wilders FITNA? > **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/2 "2008-03-27T23:04:58Z")
It’s good publicity for the film. But free speech is free speech. As for the film itself, so far (07:00) it seems a little bit one-sided. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/3 "2008-03-27T23:10:29Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] It’s good publicity for the film. But free speech is free speech. As for the film itself, so far (07:00) it seems a little bit one-sided. [/QUOTE] That’s not a trailer, it’s the film itself. Here is the wiki for it. [Fitna (film) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)) This is listed as the official site in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/4 "2008-03-27T23:11:16Z")
And boring. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/5 "2008-03-27T23:13:09Z")
Don’t worry, it will be far more interesting when the riots begin tomorrow evening. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/6 "2008-03-27T23:22:10Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Here is the wiki for it. [Fitna (film) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)) This is listed as the official site in the movie. [/QUOTE] When I click on that link here is what I get: Fitna (film From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Look for Fitna (film on one of Wikipedia’s sister projects: Wiktionary (free dictionary) Wikibooks (free textbooks) Wikiquote (quotations) Wikisource (free library) Commons (images and media) Wikinews (free news source) Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Fitna (film in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings. ``` * Start the Fitna (film article or add a request for it. * Search for "Fitna (film" in existing articles. * Look for pages within Wikipedia that link to this title. ``` Other reasons why this message may be displayed: ``` * If a page was recently created here, it may not yet be visible because of a delay in updating the database; wait a few minutes and try the purge function. * Titles on Wikipedia are case sensitive except for the first character; please check alternate capitalizations and consider adding a redirect here to the correct title. * If the page has been deleted, check the deletion log, and see Why was my page deleted?. ``` Just an FYI…no idea what this is about. ETA: I think [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_%28film%29) is the link you are looking for. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/7 "2008-03-27T23:26:56Z")
From the Wiki article I linked to: > [@](#): > > Reaction after the release of the movie > > The reaction was partly positive in comparison with what was expected, with some Muslim delegates describing it as “not as jarring as anticipated” and “extremely relieved”. A worldwide violent reaction is not expected, in stark contrast with threats made by Islamic leaders in the months before the release of the film.[44][45][46] > > In a televised reaction following the release, Mr. Balkenende, Prime Minister of the Netherlands, stated that the problem is with extremists that use Islam for their ends, and that Islam should not be associated with violence. He regrets the film’s release, saying it could offend Muslims who would not recognize their religion in the way it is depicted on film.[47][48][49] > > The Dutch parliamentarians of the largest political parties Mr. Van Geel (CDA), Ms. Hamer (PvdA) and Mr. Rutte (VVD) stated it’s sad the film doesn’t present any solutions to current problems in the Dutch society - being integration of non-native Dutch inhabitants and muslim extremism, and invited Mr. Wilders to discuss possible solutions in the parliament.[50] > > Kurt Westergaard, the cartoonist of one of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of Muhammed is upset because his cartoon is used in the film without his permission. He believes this is a copyright infringement, and has asked the newspaper Jyllands-Posten to take legal steps.[50] Kurt Westergaard says his cartoon was aimed against Islamic terrorists, not against Islam as a religion.[51] So…maybe no riots after all. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/8 "2008-03-27T23:31:28Z")
**xtisme** The second parenthese didn’t make it as part of the hyperlink. [Fitna the Film on Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)) ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/9 "2008-03-27T23:43:05Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] That’s not a trailer, it’s the film itself. [/QUOTE] [The Critic]That wasn’t a clip. That was the whole movie.[/The Critic] I’m not crazy about the title. At least it wasn’t Gene Wilder who made it, which is how I first read it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/10 "2008-03-28T00:13:05Z")
I am very interested to see what the aftermath of this is. I think it’s interesting that during the leadup to this film is started the debate about whether or not Free Speech in the West should be held hostage to the rioting of Muslims. It is unfortunate that NetSol thought that it should. We’ll see how this goes after the weekend. All of the responses from **xtisme** above, relate to the reactions of Muslims in the Netherlands. We’ll see how this plays on the streets of Khartoum, Ramallah and Karachi. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/11 "2008-03-28T01:15:18Z")
I find it disgusting that non-muslims have to live in constant fear of repercussion should they decide to criticize in any way this violent religion of hate. Yeah, yeah, there are peaceful muslims, but as an atheist, I have zero tolerance for violence in the name of what I see as a fairy tale. I think most everyone - atheist and follower of peaceful religion alike - can relate to that feeling in some way. I also find it sickeningly ironic that pointing out the violent nature of islam is almost sure to incite violence or the threat of violence - all in the name of proving how non-violent they are, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/12 "2008-03-28T03:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] I also find it sickeningly ironic that pointing out the violent nature of islam is almost sure to incite violence or the threat of violence - all in the name of proving how non-violent they are, of course. [/QUOTE] Well, I just watched the movie, all fifteen minutes of it. And **Cisco** has pointed out what is clever about this film. It doesn’t actually insult muslims anywhere, it just shows the evocative (and very one-sided) violent excesses of Islam fundamentalism. So indeed, what’s a muslim who watches it to do? Shake an enraged fist, brandish a gun, burn a flag and call for violence? Then he would be only proving Wilder’s point. Very clever. I got to give him that. Of course, the film could be one big misunderstanding. I sometimes feel traditional Islam, when it is accused of being violent and intolerant, will feel proud and understood, rather then ashamed. It would be like some Iranian politician making a movie where Holland was ridiculed using clips of our annual Gay parade, pot-smoking kids, and feminist mouthy women. If we watched that movie, we’d go: “Well yeah, that’s us, in a one-sided way. Got anything against it?” The movie is meant for westerners, not for the people in Karachi and Syria. As for responses to the movie… so far, Dutch politicians have responded along the lines of “yeah, old video clips that add nothing new, don’t offer any solutions, and paint every muslim with a too wide brush of fundamentalism and terrorism” . According to Dutch media, Dutch Muslim organizations have responded mainly with relief; they feel the movie" could have been so much worse" . ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/13 "2008-03-28T09:39:00Z")
The film is not really very provocative at all - it’s just a collection of Youtube clips that anyone who masters some moviemaking software could have done in about a day or so. This means that there probably won’t be any Dutch embassies burning or extra harsh attacks on our fighting men & women in Afghanistan. Which is good. I think the fact that the film is relatively mellow actually is sort of embarrassing for all those people who made such a fuss about it without even having seen it. Basically, Wilders said he was going to make a film about the Islam and then lots of people (like the PM and the ‘Terrorism Coordinator’ and some other men of state) went berserk and talked about forbidding it. This, of course, was also under the influence of footage shown on the news of angry people in Afghanistan burning our flag… Anyway, this shows that, rather than getting all upset about this fool Wilders and his film, people should have ignored him. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/14 "2008-03-28T10:44:36Z")
[QUOTE=Švejk] Anyway, this shows that, rather than getting all upset about this fool Wilders and his film, people should have ignored him. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure about that. If the whole world had ignored Wilders, then yeah, it would have been safe to ignore him. But once news was out that Wilders would “make a film against Islam”, the cat was out of the bag. The usual fundie-government sponsored angry demonstrations on the streets of Jemen had to take place, with the usual flag-burning. and I feel our Dutch government has been very sensible in giving the message: we don’t like it anymore then you do, but we aren’t going to stop him either. We have been commended by a Danish professor for that, and all mainstream Arabic newschannels made sure to mention that fact. One sadly amusing thing was that a few Egyptian government officials showed just how wide the cultural gap was, by saying 'What do you mean your government can’s stop Wilders from making that movie? Haven’t you people got police, jails?" “Um, yeah, but we’ve got this thing called freedom of expression, and…” Another unintended funny remark was one islamic guy quoted in a magazine saying in a very frustrated tone that the west kept on insulting Islam, and that it was impossible for Islam to insult back in the same vein, because “Nothing is holy to you guys”. 🙂 Thee whole dance around Fitna has been far more interesting then the film itself, and it has been masterfully orchestrestated by Wilders. I have to admit a kind of grudging respect for Wilders as a result. This has been the first time that Dutch muslims and Dutch mainstream politics have shown an united front, and for that alone Wilders is responsible. Kudo’s where kudo’s are due. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/15 "2008-03-28T12:56:46Z")
We’ll see if there is rioting after tonight’s prayer services. As for nothing being holy to us. Well, Freedom of Expression is pretty holy to us. 😉 And they often insult that. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/16 "2008-03-28T13:25:17Z")
The news so far: members of the Iranian parliament have expressed the desire to break off diplomatic relations with Holland. The Iranian government hasn’t yet made an offical declaration on their stance. Indonesia, the former Dutch republic and mainly Islamic, said Holland shouldn’t open old wounds. And if you look at it as " Dutch MP insults religion of a country that has already suffered much as a result of the Dutch" they have a point. However, if you regard Fitna as first and foremost freedom of expression, the Indonesians should welcome the fact that the Dutch government no longer supresses inconvenient opinions. Danish members of parliament have called the movie “a disgusting piece of propaganda” and compared it to nazi propaganda like “Der Ewige Jude.” Apart from the fact that I seem increasingly irritated by such Godwinizations (Fitna also suggests Islam is a threat akin to nazism; it’s one or the more cringeworthy moments of the movie), it is a bit of an unfair comparison. Wilders’ movie is made from a selection of clips of stuff that actually happened and that Moslim spokespersons allowed to be filmed, or filmed and broadcast themselves. Fitna is certainly a very small portion of the truth, but so far I have caught the movie only at one lie. (The lie in Fitna is the presentation of the growing number (statistics) of Muslims in the Netherlands. The number mentioned only holds up if you consider every Dutch citizen with one or more immigrant parents to be islamic. And that is silly. The official number of people for whom a non-christian religion is a core of their identity is lower then 4 % in the Netherlands. The statistic where the number of muslims in the Netherlands is followed by an even larger column of " number of muslims in Europe" is a fine example of “lying with statistics” as the two stats have nothing in common. ) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/17 "2008-03-28T13:41:22Z")
Interesting about the statistical lie. However, Islamism and Nazism is not a very cringeworthy comparison. Some Islamists, and they are not an insignificant number, want to wipe the Jews away from Israel. This exists, and it’s all well and good to want to separate ‘the good ones’, but not at the expense of recognizing that there is a serious Islamic threat, that’s real and consists of many millions of people. Western liberalism lives in terror of ethnic nationalism, and see any expression of ethnic nationalism on the part of a European to be reminiscent of Nazism, but if Western nations want to consider their western character and heritage as something valid to their existence, then a certain amount of ethnic nationalism is going to occur. > **[Us and Them](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/europe/2008-03-02/us-and-them)** > > Americans generally belittle the role of ethnic nationalism in politics. But in fact, it corresponds to some enduring propensities of the human spirit, it is galvanized by modernization, and in one form or another, it will drive global politics for... > [@](#): > > Projecting their own experience onto the rest of the world, Americans generally belittle the role of ethnic nationalism in politics. After all, in the United States people of varying ethnic origins live cheek by jowl in relative peace. Within two or three generations of immigration, their ethnic identities are attenuated by cultural assimilation and intermarriage. Surely, things cannot be so different elsewhere. > > Americans also find ethnonationalism discomfiting both intellectually and morally. Social scientists go to great lengths to demonstrate that it is a product not of nature but of culture, often deliberately constructed. And ethicists scorn value systems based on narrow group identities rather than cosmopolitanism. > > But none of this will make ethnonationalism go away. Immigrants to the United States usually arrive with a willingness to fit into their new country and reshape their identities accordingly. But for those who remain behind in lands where their ancestors have lived for generations, if not centuries, political identities often take ethnic form, producing competing communal claims to political power. The creation of a peaceful regional order of nation-states has usually been the product of a violent process of ethnic separation. In areas where that separation has not yet occurred, politics is apt to remain ugly. > > A familiar and influential narrative of twentieth-century European history argues that nationalism twice led to war, in 1914 and then again in 1939. Thereafter, the story goes, Europeans concluded that nationalism was a danger and gradually abandoned it. In the postwar decades, western Europeans enmeshed themselves in a web of transnational institutions, culminating in the European Union (EU). After the fall of the Soviet empire, that transnational framework spread eastward to encompass most of the continent. Europeans entered a postnational era, which was not only a good thing in itself but also a model for other regions. Nationalism, in this view, had been a tragic detour on the road to a peaceful liberal democratic order. > > This story is widely believed by educated Europeans and even more so, perhaps, by educated Americans. Recently, for example, in the course of arguing that Israel ought to give up its claim to be a Jewish state and dissolve itself into some sort of binational entity with the Palestinians, the prominent historian Tony Judt informed the readers of The New York Review of Books that “the problem with Israel … [is that] it has imported a characteristically late-nineteenth-century separatist project into a world that has moved on, a world of individual rights, open frontiers, and international law. The very idea of a ‘Jewish state’ … is an anachronism.” > > Yet the experience of the hundreds of Africans and Asians who perish each year trying to get into Europe by landing on the coast of Spain or Italy reveals that Europe’s frontiers are not so open. And a survey would show that whereas in 1900 there were many states in Europe without a single overwhelmingly dominant nationality, by 2007 there were only two, and one of those, Belgium, was close to breaking up. Aside from Switzerland, in other words – where the domestic ethnic balance of power is protected by strict citizenship laws – in Europe the “separatist project” has not so much vanished as triumphed. > > **Far from having been superannuated in 1945, in many respects ethnonationalism was at its apogee in the years immediately after World War II. European stability during the Cold War era was in fact due partly to the widespread fulfillment of the ethnonationalist project. And since the end of the Cold War, ethnonationalism has continued to reshape European borders.** ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/18 "2008-03-28T13:47:52Z")
Looks like no riots. Hope you didn’t lose any money betting on that. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/19 "2008-03-28T14:09:40Z")
On further research, I did find an incident of [pre-release flag burning](http://www.interfaith.org/2008/03/07/protests-over-fitna-continue/), which does not a riot make, and a [lawsuit against Wilders](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/28/geert_wilders_faces_legal_threads/)for copyright violations. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/20 "2008-03-28T14:31:19Z")
When do Friday services end? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975.md?page=2)