# Thoughts on Fitna? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975 "2008-03-27T21:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/21 "2008-03-28T14:33:01Z")
Friday Services are usually when the riots are organized, and the Muslim street doesn’t have 24/7 internet access like we do. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/22 "2008-03-28T15:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Friday Services are usually when the riots are organized, and the Muslim street doesn’t have 24/7 internet access like we do. [/QUOTE] Well, as for muslims in the Netherlands, I checked the popular internet forum for young second generation Moroccan Netherlanders, www.maroc.nl There all is quiet. Just some factual news about the way Dutch politics handles Fitna. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/23 "2008-03-28T16:49:26Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] Well, as for muslims in the Netherlands, I checked the popular internet forum for young second generation Moroccan Netherlanders, www.maroc.nl There all is quiet. Just some factual news about the way Dutch politics handles Fitna. [/QUOTE] Well if it can show a stark contrast between Dutch Muslims and Muslims in Muslim countries it might go a long way toward showing that the Muslim demographic boom while ethnic Dutch decline isn’t a horribly apocalyptic thing, at least not in the short term. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/24 "2008-03-28T20:50:41Z")
Even Liveleak caved. This is a sad day for freedom of speech. [http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9\_1206624103](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103) > [@](#): > > “Following threats to our staff of a very serious nature, and some ill informed reports from certain corners of the British media that could directly lead to the harm of some of our staff, [Liveleak.com](http://Liveleak.com) has been left with no other choice but to remove Fitna from our servers. > This is a sad day for freedom of speech on the net but we have to place the safety and well being of our staff above all else. We would like to thank the thousands of people, from all backgrounds and religions, who gave us their support. They realised [LiveLeak.com](http://LiveLeak.com) is a vehicle for many opinions and not just for the support of one. > Perhaps there is still hope that this situation may produce a discussion that could benefit and educate all of us as to how we can accept one anothers culture. > We stood for what we believe in, the ability to be heard, but in the end the price was too high.” ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/25 "2008-03-28T21:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=Gala Matrix Fire] On further research, I did find an incident of [pre-release flag burning](http://www.interfaith.org/2008/03/07/protests-over-fitna-continue/), which does not a riot make, and a [lawsuit against Wilders](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/28/geert_wilders_faces_legal_threads/)for copyright violations. [/QUOTE] There is another lawsuit by a Dutch rapper whose picture – hell, his album cover – is displayed while the film is talking about the killer of Theo van Gogh. The rapper is not the killer of Theo van Gogh but he is of moroccan descent which is apparently good enough for government work. I couldn’t find an article in English, though. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/26 "2008-03-29T18:19:33Z")
Well, everybody who’s anybody has responded about now. All European governments have said in unison: “Yeah, the film equals Islam to violence and that is wrong. But mr. Wilders has, under free speech, a right to make such a movie. So, we feel that anyone who feels they have been insulted should take the movie to court, as as far as we are concerned the movie isn’t an excuse for violence or threats”. The govenment of Afghanistan has demanded a world-wide ban on the movie, as it “insults the Prophet, and is a wrong interpretation of the right to freedom of speech, that will lead to hatred between people”. (Afghanistan “interpreting” what is and isn’t a good use of the freedom of speech…priceless :rolleyes: ) The Ex Premier of Malaysia (so not the current government) has called for a worldwide boycot. Singapore, Iran, Bangladesh and Indonesia have spoken out against the movie, I don’t know in what way. Thirty newspapers from Jordan have started a campaign to boycot Dutch export products. Dutch companies, organized in VNO-NCW are going to find out if Wilders can be hold liable for the economic effects of a boycot of Dutch products. At least two Islamic “Contramovies” have been made. I’ve seen both. The first, made by an individual Dutch Turkish moviemaker, was made way before the airing of “Fitna”. It is a short documentary attempting to visit/interview Wilder’s office, highschool and his old mum, in an attempt to “find out how mr Wilders got this twisted” . So, totally ad hominem. I got angry when that movie showed how the camera crew ringed the bell at Mrs’ Wilders apartment building and spoke to her over the intercom. Of course an old lady, who has kept totally to herself, never gone on record with any statement about her son, isn’t going to let some guys in that claim to be “making a documentary about Wilders” . She’d be crazy to. And those guys would be equally angry if someone tried to involve and intimidate (however veiled) their mom. I found it sickening. I don’t think Michael Moore would stoop to that. The second movie really is “tit for tat”. It is made by the Belgian Islamic Political party, and consists of some of the more disgusting and violent quotes from the Bible, with some really old footage 1970’s) of Dutch and German extremist attacks on Islamic immigrants. Which is fine by me, and an correct answer, albeit a bit less convincing. That movie also makes a lot of ad-hominem attacks on Wilders, (calling him a racist and zionist, which are both factually incorrect) which I have to say is a lot less classy then Wilders’ movie was. So, all in all everything happened as expected. The boycots don’t trouble me; Holland’s export to Islamic countries is worth less then 5 % of our total export. And in fact I’m glad that Dutch and Belgian muslims have shown such restraint and responded in manners within Dutch law. As they should, as we all should, of course. There have even been a few really grown-up and humorous responses in the weeks before the appearance of Fitna, like the group of Islamic girls who said that Wilders was how he was because he hadn’t got enough love, and an appeal to send him stuffed teddybears. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/27 "2008-03-29T18:32:59Z")
Interesting post **Maastricht**. I guess the way this battle will be fought is for Muslims to realize that westerners are going to keep ridiculing them until they don’t care anymore. The girls talking about sending him teddy bears are on the right track. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/28 "2008-03-29T19:18:48Z")
Exactly. So I think this 7 minute [clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-ZrwFwLQg) by comedian Marcus Brigstoke is so far the best answer to Fitna anyone could wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/29 "2008-03-29T20:48:35Z")
I think the best response to Wilders to date was the protestor who was arrested the day before Fitna came out for distributing a pamphlet whose contents amounted to an antisemitic hate crime. He took a speech of Wilders’, replaced the word “muslim” with the word “jew” throughout and handed it out. And was almost immediately arrested. He was released almost as fast and the press had a field day. There is speculation that it was a total set up, that is, that the prosecutor’s office got an advance copy and played along. What this speculation pans out to remains to be seen, but I am watching for the obvious followup. I would almost feel sorry for Wilders except for the whole “what we really need in Holland are internment camps” comment. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/30 "2008-03-30T11:36:54Z")
[QUOTE=Marienee] I think the best response to Wilders to date was the protestor who was arrested the day before Fitna came out for distributing a pamphlet whose contents amounted to an antisemitic hate crime. He took a speech of Wilders’, replaced the word “muslim” with the word “jew” throughout and handed it out. And was almost immediately arrested. He was released almost as fast and the press had a field day. There is speculation that it was a total set up, that is, that the prosecutor’s office got an advance copy and played along. What this speculation pans out to remains to be seen, but I am watching for the obvious followup. I would almost feel sorry for Wilders except for the whole “what we really need in Holland are internment camps” comment. [/QUOTE] What speech did he take? Wilders himself doesn’t really make any speeches in the video. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/31 "2008-03-30T12:50:10Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] What speech did he take? Wilders himself doesn’t really make any speeches in the video. [/QUOTE] **Marienee** is probably referrring to speeches mr Wilders made adressing Parliament. Wilders can say some pretty outrageous things there. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975/32 "2008-03-30T15:16:00Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] What speech did he take? Wilders himself doesn’t really make any speeches in the video. [/QUOTE] It was not clear to me from the articles where the speech came from; according to the article I read they were not from Parliamentary sessions because words spoken in that context are specially protected (as they are in the US). This was in essence an effort to make real a statement made of Wilders by a filmmaker (I think, in any event a non- politician public figure) recently that “If he had said of Jews what he says of Muslims he would be arrested for hate crimes”. This apparently got somebody thinking and resulted in the pamphlet. I wish I could link to something in english, my literacy in dutch is good but by no means perfect. But I can’t find anything about it in english anywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-fitna/442975.md?page=1)