# Thoughts on Patrick O'Brian's Novels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [November 15, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078 "2016-11-15T17:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/41 "2016-11-17T22:06:21Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > But what was O’Brian thinking when he wrote the bear impersonation episode? That was a bit bizarre. I always felt it was bizarre, too, but the last time I read the series something occurred to me. Just preceding the bear incident was the whole love triangle thing among Jack, Diana and Stephen. Jack is unfeelingly flirting with Diana although he knows Stephen is in love with her. Following right on the heels of this is the bear incident. I think O’Brian wanted to show Jack being humiliated after the Diana thing. Stephen did seem to carry it on longer than was necessary. I think he was enjoying making Jack sweat and suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/42 "2016-11-18T02:25:40Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Another book worth reading is _Two Years before the Mast_ by Richard Dana. That’s putting it mildly. This book should be read and re-read by anyone with a shred of interest in ships and the sea. It’s one of the very few authentic accounts of shipboard life from “before the mast” (i.e. in front of the mast, where the ordinary seamen berthed). Dana is observant and tells his tale well. His description of the “Kanakas” (Hawaiian sailors) and his watchmate Tom Harris are wonderful. If you haven’t read this, start tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/43 "2016-11-18T02:49:42Z")
Before the Mainmast, the foremast or the mizzen? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/44 "2016-11-18T03:42:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Before the Mainmast, the foremast or the mizzen? > :dubious: On my ship, the ordinary seamen had berths in the fo’c’sle, so they were before the foremast (and all the others, too). ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/45 "2016-11-18T03:44:29Z")
> [@teela\_brown](#): > > I always felt it was bizarre, too, … > > Following right on the heels of this is the bear incident. I think O’Brian wanted to show Jack being humiliated after the Diana thing. Stephen did seem to carry it on longer than was necessary. I think he was enjoying making Jack sweat and suffer. Interesting thought. I remember thinking last time I read about the bear that Stephen wanted to make the point to Jack that his secret squirrel stuff could at times be incredibly mentally and physically gruelling, and that he sometimes felt taken for granted or slighted for having to maintain the facade of the landlubberly surgeon on the ship. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/46 "2016-11-18T03:56:51Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Interesting thought. > > I remember thinking last time I read about the bear that Stephen wanted to make the point to Jack that his secret squirrel stuff could at times be incredibly mentally and physically gruelling, and that he sometimes felt taken for granted or slighted for having to maintain the facade of the landlubberly surgeon on the ship. Two things wrong with that theory - First, it wasn’t a facade. It was his primary identity. He considered his job as a naval physician at least as if not more important than his job with Naval Intelligence. Secondly, at the time of the dancing bear incident, we the reader had hardly seen Stephen act as an intelligence agent. That doesn’t show up at all in Master & Commander, and they don’t go to sea until after the bear incident in Post Captain - the entire first third of the book before they escape to France occurs during the Peace of Amiens. He doesn’t really hit his stride as an agent until later books. I just take it for what it claims to be - they had to keep Jack in the skin while they walked to Spain, since 6 ft tall blonde Frenchman with English accents are few and far between in France. The fact that everyone believed it was a bear just takes some suspension of disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/47 "2016-11-18T04:41:21Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > I didn’t heed the warnings in this thread . . . > > I downloaded _Master and Commander_ to my Kindle at 9pm last night for “just an hour of reading before I go to sleep.” > > Fast forward to 2am, and I have to self-pry the Kindle out of my paws and order myself to sleep, as I had a 7am waking time this morning. > > This book is a lot of fun, really well-written, and the sailing language/terms are a joy to roll around in my brain. I can’t wait to get home today and resume! LOL, I remember reading one book in the series, driving to the book store (like we did in days of yore), finishing the book in the parking lot, going into the store to buy the next book and then sitting in the parking lot for another hour to read the first part of the new book. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/48 "2016-11-18T13:22:06Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > 6 ft tall blonde Frenchman with English accents are few and far between in France. I recall Jack attempting to speak French; two Frenchmen stare at each other until Stephen translates. It is apparently funny as hell if you understand French grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/49 "2016-11-18T15:52:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I recall Jack attempting to speak French; two Frenchmen stare at each other until Stephen translates. > It is apparently funny as hell if you understand French grammar. And the bits where Jack wants to be polite when being introduced to Frenchmen. Since a well-bred Englishman at that time would say “your servant, sir” in English, Jack tries to do the same in French. But since the French didn’t really use that particular phrase, and Jack is a famously incompetent translator, it ends up with Jack basically bowing and saying “Chambermaid” to the no-doubt extremely confused Frenchmen. And yeah, I don’t think the bear suit needs any justification other than the straightforward one of hiding a six-foot blond Englishman while smuggling him out of France. The question is why, in a series that tries extremely hard to be accurate and plausible in regards to details of sailing and society, the reader is expected to believe it would work for more than ten minutes. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/50 "2016-11-18T16:02:02Z")
Thanks Quercus. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/51 "2016-11-18T20:37:30Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > . . . The question is why, in a series that tries extremely hard to be accurate and plausible in regards to details of sailing and society, the reader is expected to believe it would work for more than ten minutes. Both the bear suit incident and the south seas lesbian man-hating sailors were pushing the boundaries of believability. But I liked them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/52 "2016-11-18T21:05:55Z")
Babbington and his shipload of rescued Lesbians is stretching it also, but O’Brien earned quite a large poet’s license. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/53 "2016-11-18T21:27:41Z")
Where do these story lines occur? I’m only up through Nutmeg of Consolation. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/54 "2016-11-18T21:35:31Z")
The bear suit is in Post Captain (book 2), Babbington and the rescued lesbians is in The Ionian Mission (book 8), Manu and the cannibal castrating lesbians are in Far Side of the World (book 10). So if you’re going in order **jsc1953** , you’ve read all of them. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/55 "2016-11-18T22:01:55Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > The bear suit is in Post Captain (book 2), Babbington and the rescued lesbians is in The Ionian Mission (book 8), Manu and the cannibal castrating lesbians are in Far Side of the World (book 10). So if you’re going in order **jsc1953** , you’ve read all of them. I distinctly remember the bear suit but the 2 (!) incidents of lesbians totally went past me. I may have to re-read. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/56 "2016-11-18T22:14:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > … O’Brien earned quite a large poet’s license. Indeed he did - I’m not disposed to quibble overmuch. I’d say he also earned an ‘a’ in his last name. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/57 "2016-11-18T22:18:02Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > 2 (!) incidents of lesbians totally went past me. The ones in _The Ionian Mission_ were Lesbians with a capital ‘L’ - women from the island of Lesbos. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/58 "2016-11-18T22:20:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Jack flees the ship wrecked on an iceberg, leaving Bonden and his crew to a horrible death. I’m still pissed off about that. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/59 "2016-11-18T22:54:26Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I distinctly remember the bear suit but the 2 (!) incidents of lesbians totally went past me. I may have to re-read. Do you remember the event in FSoTW at all? Stephen was in the cabin, leaning out the window with a net to catch some prized specimen and fell in. Jack dove in after him, but by the time he got Stephen back to the surface the ship was too far away to hear his hail. They were picked up by a pahi full of women. > [@Xema](#): > > The ones in _The Ionian Mission_ were Lesbians with a capital ‘L’ - women from the island of Lesbos. It’s sort of implied they were lower-case lesbians as well - they all hold hands while on the ship “to show respect”, and they wanted to be returned to their home, while the women kidnapped from other islands were content to stay with their captors. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078/60 "2016-11-19T00:30:36Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > It’s sort of implied they were lower-case lesbians as well - they all hold hands while on the ship “to show respect” This seems like a considerable stretch. It’s noted that they were “all the young female part of a wedding in Lesbos”. > [@](#): > > the women kidnapped from other islands were content to stay with their captors. Because the Naxiotes, unlike the Lesbians, “had been aboard a long time”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-patrick-obrians-novels/772078.md?page=4)