# Thoughts on Revenge of the Sith (unboxed spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 19, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551 "2005-05-19T08:06:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/401 "2005-05-26T05:52:36Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Why would the Hutts have a reward on Obi-Wan’s head? They could be brokers. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/402 "2005-05-26T06:28:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > They could be brokers. Explain? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/403 "2005-05-26T07:01:33Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Explain? > [@](#): > > Main Entry: bro·ker > Pronunciation: 'brO-k&r > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English, negotiator, from Anglo-French brocour > 1 : one who acts as an intermediary: as a : an agent who arranges marriages **b : an agent who negotiates contracts of purchase and sale (as of real estate, commodities, or securities)** I was mostly just making a joke at the expense of Lucas apologists, but it’s feasible, really. In a bureaucracy as large as the Empire, peripheral big money deals would likely be brokered out to independent contractors, such as the Hutts. Also, remember in _Empire_ when one of the imperial officers says “Bounty Hunters? We don’t need their scum.”? Well, the Hutts obviously don’t mind dealing with them, and the empire would probably be more apt to deal with the Hutts. Jabba (or whoever) puts the contract out on the Jedi, the bounty hunters go get them, and then the Hutts tack on a broker fee and hand them over to the empire. It’s win-win-win. Happens all the time in business transactions. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/404 "2005-05-26T07:17:35Z")
And you’re telling me that neither Vader nor Palpatine told the Hutts “Oh, and if a bounty hunter turns up with this guy called Kenobi, give us a whistle”? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/405 "2005-05-26T07:43:35Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > And you’re telling me that neither Vader nor Palpatine told the Hutts “Oh, and if a bounty hunter turns up with this guy called Kenobi, give us a whistle”? You’d be surprised at the cockiness that absolute power brings. I’m sure they forgot about Obi-Wan around the time all the other Jedi were killed. Hell, the rebellion had been going on for years without him making so much as a guest appearence, so why should they think he would be any kind of threat? That said, this really isn’t my fight. I’m just having fun with Luca$ revisionism. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/406 "2005-05-26T08:35:57Z")
I was indeed thinking of the _serial_ Commander Cody as opposed to the band CC&TLPA. Apparently original credit for the song “Hot Rod Lincoln” goes to [Charlie Ryan](http://www.lincoln-club.org/hot-rod-lincoln1.html). ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/407 "2005-05-26T08:50:38Z")
Apologies for the consecutive posts. If we assume that Luke and Leia have been twins all along, why is it that Leia has memories of their birth mother while Luke does not? Even if the same age, this suggests Leia lived with her longer, not that she died immeditely after childbirth. If you want to use the Force to explain it… well, it was Luke training to use the Force by that point, not Leia. The way he asks her about their mother also suggests living memory to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/408 "2005-05-26T09:19:47Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > If we assume that Luke and Leia have been twins all along, why is it that Leia has memories of their birth mother while Luke does not? Didn’t feel like reading the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/409 "2005-05-26T10:49:14Z")
Ah, **Crandolph** , I assumed you were thinking of the band, since you said “Commander Cody and his Lost Planet Airmen,” which is the name of the band, while the name of the serial in which Commando Cody and the Lost Planet Airmen appear is _King of the Rocketmen_. As for the twin thing, (if you don’t want to review the posts in which this has been repeatedly addressed) for the love of all that is holy, just listen to [this clip from _Return of the Jedi_](http://www.earthstation1.com/MovieWavFiles/sister.wav). If you think this is something that Lucas altered to make the OT fit the prequels, then [here’s a 1995 usenet posting that references it.](http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.starwars/msg/e489dd365992b3bb?dmode=source&hl=en) > [@](#): > > Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for… sister! So…you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will. > [@Crandolph](#): > > If we assume that Luke and Leia have been twins all along, why is it that Leia has memories of their birth mother while Luke does not? […] If you want to use the Force to explain it… well, it was Luke training to use the Force by that point, not Leia. That’s easy-peasy, but fair warning, the rest of this post is mumbo-jumbo. Kind of like The Force. Here goes: You know that Lucas refered to Joseph Campbell a lot, right? Enough that he gets a screen credit in two films? Well, Campbell wrote about the concepts of “Lunar Consciousness” and “Solar Consciousness.” The idea (hooey or not) is that their are two default modes of consciousness available to human beings from birth. Solar consciousness is rational, language and logic oriented, and typically male. Lunar consciousness is non-rational, intuitive, and image-oriented, and typically female. (These aren’t supposed to be rigidly divided into man-think and woman-think or anything, there are lunar men and solar women.) Anyway, in hermeticism, the Big Occult Secret is learning how to balance lunar and solar consciousness. Long story short, Leia has “images and feelings” about her mother because that’s her default mode. She’s Lunar. Luke has to be trained to access lunar consciousness, because he’s solar. Luke does appear to remember something from the minute or so that he spends in his mother’s company – her dying _words_, which he repeats to Leia. Language is solar. (Also note that Leia’s place during the climax of _Jedi_ is leading the raiding party on Endor’s moon, while Luke sorts things out on the Death Star.) You might think it’s hokey to cram a popcorn movie full of archaic esoterica, but it tickles the man to do so – and provides a lot of fun for obsessive nerds like me. While I’m on the subject of arcane crap in _Star Wars_, (you can stop reading altogether here if arcane crap doesn’t interest you, because it’s all arcane crap from here until the end of the post) here’s something a notorious hermetic wrote relatively recently (though several decades before Lucas started scribbling.) > [@](#): > > I trembled at Thy coming, O my God, for Thy messenger was more terrible than the Death-star. > On the threshold stood the fulminant figure of Evil, the Horror of emptiness, with his ghastly eyes like poisonous wells. He stood, and the chamber was corrupt; the air stank. He was an old and gnarled fish more hideous than the shells of Abaddon. > He enveloped me with his demon tentacles; yea, the eight fears took hold upon me. (Yeah, The Great White Beast was a crap poet.) Another (off-topic but fun) quote before I go to bed, from a contemporary of Uncle Al’s, occultist and novelist Marie Corelli. This passage, from _The Secret Power_, describes the maiden flight of an occultly-powered craft designed by her protagonist Morgana Royal: > [@](#): > > “I know the possibilities perfectly,”–she said–“But I know nothing of risks–there are none. This is our safety”–and she drew out from the folds of her cloak, two small packets of cylindrical form–“This emanation of Nature’s greatest Force will keep us going for a year if needful! Oh man!–I do not mean YOU particularly, but man generally!–why could you not light on this little, little clue!-- why was it left to a woman! Come!–let us see the White Eagle in its nest,–it shall spread its wings and soar to-day–we will give it full liberty!” > […] > > –and to the amazement and almost fear of all who witnessed what seemed to be a miracle, the ship sprang up like a bird springing from the ground, and soared free and away into space, its vast white wings cleaving the air with a steady rise and fall of rhythmic power. Once aloft she sailed in level flight, apparently at perfect ease–and after several rapid “runs,” and circlings, descended slowly and gracefully, landing her pilot without shock or jar. He was at once surrounded and was asked a thousand questions which it was evident he could not answer. > > “How can I tell!” he replied, to all interrogations. “The secret is the secret of a woman!” Hmmm… _The Secret Power_, about “Nature’s greatest Force,” with a protagonist named Morgana Royal, who designs an airship called the White Eagle… You think George _might_ have read this at some point? (Apart from a certain Corellian freighter, are their any other references to Terran animals in _Star Wars?_ Apart from predatory birds? I don’t remember.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/410 "2005-05-26T12:51:13Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > Hell, why not have him drop to his knees, switch to an overhead shot, and have rain falling in his face. Not what I meant. I accept my wording was confusing, so let me change it to… "Did anyone actually like and find worthwhile the ‘Noooooooooo!’ bit? I saw the movie again last night (finally got to take the girlfriend, who also loved it) and there’s two things I noted. First, while I can’t believe I didn’t catch this the first time, Obi-Wan is very, very obviously provoking Anakin into jumping over him. He was totally playing to Anakin’s arrogance an a ploy to get him to do something extremely stupid. I just can’t believe I didn’t catch it the first time. Second, I really think that Windu beat Palpatine. I don’t think that Palpatine took a dive, he was just beaten. Of course, once Anakin showed up Palpatine went from his insane “Just because you beat me, Jedi, doesn’t mean I’m not going to kill you somehow booga booga booga!!!” to his “Anakin…help me…I’m a helpless old man and he’s going to kill me…”. I think as far as Palpatine was concerned, Anakin was a Force-sent miracle. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/411 "2005-05-26T13:16:52Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > First, while I can’t believe I didn’t catch this the first time, Obi-Wan is very, very obviously provoking Anakin into jumping over him. He was totally playing to Anakin’s arrogance an a ploy to get him to do something extremely stupid. I just can’t believe I didn’t catch it the first time. Really? I’ve only seen it the one time, but I remember it as pretty clear that Obi-Wan didn’t want Anakin to try the leap and tried to persuade him out of it. I don’t think Obi-Wan wanted to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![QuizCustodet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ba0ec/32.png) [@QuizCustodet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuizCustodet)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/412 "2005-05-26T13:53:40Z")
The scene with Bail Organa at the Jedi Temple has been addressed several times in this thread (though I can’t bring myself to wade through nine pages to find quotes!) - unless I missed a post, which is entirely possible, everyone so far has interpreted the clone troopers as deciding to kill Organa, at which point the padawan runs out to try to save him. Now, call me crazy, but my interpretation of that scene was different. I didn’t see the clone troopers shoot at anyone until the padawan turned up - had he not, Organa would have gotten to fly away unharmed. The padawan was hiding somewhere nearby, saw a chance to escape the carnage, and made a run for Organa’s speeder - the clonetroopers shout ‘Get him!’ meaning the padawan; they kill him, and then realize that they should kill Organa, too. He gets away, clearly. So - am I crazy, or is that the way the scene played? ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/413 "2005-05-26T14:01:33Z")
> [@QuizCustodet](#): > > The scene with Bail Organa at the Jedi Temple has been addressed several times in this thread (though I can’t bring myself to wade through nine pages to find quotes!) - unless I missed a post, which is entirely possible, everyone so far has interpreted the clone troopers as deciding to kill Organa, at which point the padawan runs out to try to save him. > > Now, call me crazy, but my interpretation of that scene was different. I didn’t see the clone troopers shoot at anyone until the padawan turned up - had he not, Organa would have gotten to fly away unharmed. The padawan was hiding somewhere nearby, saw a chance to escape the carnage, and made a run for Organa’s speeder - the clonetroopers shout ‘Get him!’ meaning the padawan; they kill him, and then realize that they should kill Organa, too. He gets away, clearly. > > So - am I crazy, or is that the way the scene played? I agree with your interpretation. I would have liked to get a clear shot of the padawan, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/414 "2005-05-26T14:07:29Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Not what I meant. I accept my wording was confusing, so let me change it to… > > "Did anyone actually like and find worthwhile the ‘Noooooooooo!’ bit? Well, in that case, no. I thought it was pretty weak, hence my sarcastic suggestion to the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/415 "2005-05-26T15:35:10Z")
> [@QuizCustodet](#): > > \ and then realize that they should kill Organa, too. He gets away, clearly. > > So - am I crazy, or is that the way the scene played? I agree, as well, except for them realizing they should kill Organa. You can clearly hear the clone squad leader say “Let him go” as the speeder lifts off. After the padawan dies, Organa runs to the speeder and ducks as if to dodge blaster fire, but I don’t think any shots are fired at him. He’s just scared, and rightfully so, but he’s in no actual danger, I think. They intended all along to leave him alive, and I think it’s because Palpatine had ordered that none of the Senators should be killed so that he could explain the “betrayal” of the Jedi and announce the new Empire to the Senate in the special session he called. He still needed the Senate, after all. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/416 "2005-05-26T16:54:31Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I agree with your interpretation. I would have liked to get a clear shot of the padawan, though. That’s okay, the clone troopers seemed to get plenty of clear shots at him already. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/417 "2005-05-26T16:55:08Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > That’s okay, the clone troopers seemed to get plenty of clear shots at him already. Ba-damp-damp-pssh! ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/418 "2005-05-26T17:25:20Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Really? I’ve only seen it the one time, but I remember it as pretty clear that Obi-Wan didn’t want Anakin to try the leap and tried to persuade him out of it. I don’t think Obi-Wan wanted to kill him. Obi-Wan definitely wanted to kill him. That was the whole point of the light sabre dueling, and the leaving him for dead. But I agree that Obi Wan was taunting him. Anakin thinks he’s so much more powerful than Obi Wan. So when Obi Wan says “I have the upper ground, it’s over”, Anakin’s response is “oh yeah? well, rather than think for 10 seconds and realize I can just float downstream, hop off, and fight you on level ground, I’ll prove how much better I am by jumping all the way over your head, you weak old man!!!”. Thus, Anakin’s downfall (like Darth Maul’s in TPM and Palpy’s in ROTJ) is from overconfidence. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/419 "2005-05-26T18:08:51Z")
[The last word.](http://www.comics.com/comics/hedge/index.html) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/420 "2005-05-26T18:10:17Z")
> [@QuizCustodet](#): > > Now, call me crazy, but my interpretation of that scene was different. Thanks for clarifying the scene; your intepretation makes a lot more sense thana nything I had been able to devise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551.md?page=22)