# Thoughts on Revenge of the Sith (unboxed spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 19, 2005, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551 "2005-05-19T08:06:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/161 "2005-05-20T18:38:24Z")
> [@Patty & Chuck](#): > > Basicly, you have to realize that Lucas’ original cut was 3 hours and 10 minutes in length. He screeened it and his exec./ co-producers said that people aren’t willing to sit in the theater for three hours. > > Under pressure, he cut nearly 40 minutes of footage. Included in this would be an interesting subplot in which Padme, Mon Mothra, and Bail Organa start the beginnings of the Rebellion. Also, was more of Palpatine f\*cking with Anakin…saying he saw Obi-Wan leaving Padme’s apartment and stuff. > > Granted, the turn does seem a bit rushed. Yet, in the original vision, I’m sure it was more realized. > > Yet, when you have people telling you that you would risk turning a better profit if you keep the length…you’d cut it too. I doubt I would have wanted to sit through three hours and ten minutes of this movie . . . but I might point out that _Return of the King_ was about 3 and a half hours long. And I believe it did okay, moneywise . . . I’m just sayin’, is all . . . ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/162 "2005-05-20T18:44:30Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I never realized there was so much ire for episode 2 before, either. I thought it was fantastic compared to episode 1, and that George had redeemed himself at that point. Clones does better on IMDb (currently 7.0 to 6.4), if that’s any consolation. The difference in degree of rottenness between the two films is an interesting philosophical question. Imagine for a moment that these two films were _really_ the first two of the franchise–how would they have fared? I can guarantee you they would have bombed in precisely the same way as _Chronicles of Riddick_ did: with decent but not mind-blowing special effects and a retarded story (actually, I will take _Riddick_ over Ep I & II any day). Actually, Clones would never have been made with Ep I being of the quality that it was. Anyway, what’s better about Clones except that perhaps it has less overall rot? Less Jar Jar, less fun with accents and ethnic stereotypes (Shiftless Negro Jar Jar, Plotting Chinaman Trade Fed Mandarin, Evil Hebrew Watto)–wow, less garbage overall, but replaced with… what? There isn’t even a Darth Maul to kick some ass around. Nothing, nada. In some ways, Clones is the worse movie because although it has less to trash it up it also has less to make it exciting, too. Man, just thinking about those first two flicks makes me ill. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/163 "2005-05-20T18:45:00Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > This, of course, is one of the central arguments in the Jedi Are Stupid theory. So, a Jedi that people hardly remember ordered this army of clones. On what authority? Where did he get the money? What was the motivation for creating this army in the first place? > > All important questions that the Jedi completely ignore. It’s one thing to opportunistically “appropriate” the army to rescue their comrades on Geonosis. But years later, they’re still using these clones. Aren’t any Jedi remotely suspicious? Doesn’t anyone sense something the slightest bit fishy? Based on the films, No. They’re like Homer Simpson: “Yoink! Free Army!” And then it’s forgotten. > > Of course, this makes the Code 66 thing possible, which means that the Jedi’s stupid-but-convenient oversight (their “wisdom” notwithstanding) is necessary to facilitate that particular plot point. Really really dumb. But they _are_ suspicious, as evidenced by their distrust of Palpatine, and their almost pathological insistence that he abdicate all “Emergency Powers” _immediately_ upon hearing word that General Grievous (the separatist’s military genius) is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/164 "2005-05-20T18:51:13Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I’m trying to imagine the dialogue for the “Start of the rebellion” cut scenes: > > Padme: The empire has fallen. What do we do now? > > Bail Organa: I don’t know. I am so sad. > > Mon Mothra: We could rebel! > > Padme: Yes! That is a good idea. We’ll rebel. > > Bail Organa: We can call ourselves “the rebels.” > > Padme: I miss Anakin. I love him more then life itself. > > Bail Organa: That’s so sweet. > > Mon Mothra: Don’t lose your will to live, Padme! > > Padme: Perhaps the rebellion will give me ‘a new hope.’ This may be the funniest thing I’ve ever read . . . 😃 Very nice. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/165 "2005-05-20T19:03:01Z")
I cannot believe that Samuel L Jackson is getting sucha free pass here. He flat out _ **sucked** _, ruined big chunks of the movie. The guy can’t be anything other than Sam Jackson, aka Jules, which is fine, but he’s as for from being a senior Jedi master as they come. I’m not sure if I feel like he was the impetus of the downfall of the Jedi because Lucas wanted it to feel that way, or if it was because I just thought he was awful and contrary in this role. Sucked, big time! That said, I still really enjoyed the movie. I’ve come to expect awful dialogue from Lucas and Co, so I can deal with that. The Anakin/Padme romance makes porno seem deep and heartfelt, I’m fine with that. The “NOOOO!” cliche at the end spoiled somewhat what would have been a legendary scene, and I agree a emotional, but more silent reaction would have been best. I loved the crushing of everything around him, I would have taken that a step further and had him react speechlessly, perhaps with him clenching his fists. I also hated that his arms were strapped down and he broke free. Why? Shouldn’t he have just been laying there and gotten up instead of the clunky Frankenstein homage? Sorry to ramble, but this thread is a struggle to get through and still have a coherent thought to share. ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/166 "2005-05-20T19:15:41Z")
Wow, it’s a pretty sad state of affairs when _every single suggested replacement_ for the “NOOOOO!” scene that I’ve heard sounds better than the one actually used. 😉 I especially like **Cuckoorex** ’s idea. THAT would’ve chilled me to the bone. It would be totally consistent with the Vader we see in the original trilogy, and would’ve served as a great moment of closure: this is the moment when Anakin Skywaler “dies,” from Obi-wan’s point of view, and when Darth Vader is truly born. Instead, it was all I could do to stop myself from bursting out laughing. I think there are three main problems with the “NOOO” scene as filmed. First of all, obscuring Anakin’s face with the mask during this scene makes it far more cartoonish than it should’ve been- we should be empathizing with his anguish, not snickering at the idea of DARTH VADER screaming at the skies. It would’ve been far better if Sidious had told him about Padme _before_ the masking- I could’ve bought that wrecked body screaming “NOOOO” as the combined agony of his wounds and newfound emotional despair become too much for him to bear. Certainly, the one thing Hayden Christensen does really well as an actor is get across screaming fits of anger; I see no reason why he wouldn’t have nailed such a shot. Secondly, the way its filmed just doesn’t mesh with the brutal realism of the previous scenes. Sure, it’s Star Wars and thus filled with floating gadgets and evil black masks, but the last several scenes (i.e. from Anakin’s amputations onward) were powerful because they were shot to emphasize the reality of Anakin’s predicament. Simple shots of the metal hand grasping the molten soil, the Emperor tending to Anakin in a way that almost seems fatherly, that haunting intercutting between Anakin’s burned body on the medical bed and Padme screaming in childbirth… and then suddenly, we get Frankenstein’s monster raising his fists in the air and bellowing like a mechanical King Kong, complete with corny camera pullback. It just doesn’t mesh with the tone of the previous scenes, which is all the worse considering that it is clearly supposed to be the most emotionally gripping scene of the trilogy. Lastly, and most importantly, I couldn’t buy Darth Vader worrying about Padme simply because the setup was terrible. I’m talking all three movies now- if a filmmaker wants to make his or her audience care about a tragedy, he has to first make the audience care about the people involved. And honestly, I didn’t give a shit about Padme by the end of ROTS, nor did I buy her “shared love” with Anakin. So Vader’s “anguish” comes off as unbelievable, and the fact that it’s staged in such a melodramatic fashion makes it come off as laughable. Compare this to Han Solo’s encasement in carbonite. At this point, we have grown to care about these two people, the wry scoundrel with the heart of gold, the rebel princess who seems wise in years when it comes to politics and war, and so the moment of their separation is heartbreaking. They’ve _earned_ that moment through every Han and Leia moment of the last two films. And of course, it helps a lot that despite the emotion of the moment, Han’s last words are delivered without melodrama, without histrionics. There’s a reason why the “I love you” / “I know” exchange is considered one of the most powerful scenes in the most powerful episode of the Star Wars saga, and it’s because it’s genuinely resonant in the minds and hearts of the audience. In that sense (for this audience-member, at least), Darth Vader’s scream was an utter failure. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/167 "2005-05-20T19:32:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And I didn’t like the Death Star shot, either… It seemed like pointless fan-service. Yeah, they could have started the second one before the Battle of Yavin, but _why_? They certainly didn’t anticipate the first one being destroyed, and one Death Star is really all you need. And those things are expensive! Granted, this is a Galactic Empire we’re talking about here, but still, a battle station the size of a small moon has to strain their resources, much less two of them. Hey now, R&D is a bitch. Building the prototype takes longer than the next one, think of the first nuclear vessels or whatever. Plus the emperor can’t be as blatent on spending in the first days of the empire as later when he’s able to dismiss the senate. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/168 "2005-05-20T19:54:00Z")
Palpatine’s thoughts while watching Anakin fight Dooku: “I like this the style of this chair. Note to self: always have this sort of chair when watching my new apprentice kill my old apprentice.” ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/169 "2005-05-20T19:59:55Z")
My thoughts on the “Nooooo” scene: I personally would’ve loved to have Anakin lying there, with all the leather and doo-dads attached, immobile on the table with medical droids running around behind him getting the last doo-dad (Dark Helmet) ready. As we can see the Vader he’ll become (leather, cape, etc.) and the Anakin he’s been (young man’s face horribly burned), he turns to the Emperor who’s standing there watching and asks in a horrible, burned vocal cord voice about Padme. Emperor - Oh! I’m sorry. Did I neglect to mention that she died? Nothing to be done. Sad, really. Anakin’s eyes open in horror at what he’s done, screams incoherently (put a “nooooo” in if you must, but a plain ol’ scream works just as well), and gets his scream cut off suddenly by the mask finally being lowered onto his face. Do a little montage, showing him lying there for some time. Staring off into space, moving his arms, shaking his head, what have you. Let him stew in what he’s done, and what he’s doomed to be from now on. Emperor comes back in, medico droids report that Vader’s ready to be fired up. They do so. Vader stands, turns to the Emperor, kneels, looks up at him. “What…what is thy bidding, my Master?” ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/170 "2005-05-20T20:04:29Z")
On the Death Star - where is it written that the Death Star was new at the battle of Yavin? I don’t remember any references in ANH that it was a new beast. Meaning I don’t think it took 20 years to build - I think they just built it in, dunno, 5 years or so and then used it in the interim to terrorize the galaxy. Remember, it had its own propulsion systems. I’m thinking that it was in there to show us how Sidious was going to establish control, not that “here’s the thing that you’ll get to see 20 years later.” It seems to me that the Death Star was a fairly established reality in ANH. But I could be wrong. I seem to recall that it was stated somewhere that Death Star mark II was a good deal bigger than the first; something like twice or four times as big. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/171 "2005-05-20T20:12:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Three-plus hours of George Lucas dialogue would have been lethal. I’m sure you’ll get it all on the Ultra-Super-Spectacular-Ultimate-Special Edition DVD. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/172 "2005-05-20T20:14:45Z")
SWE1:ANH OB1: “I have something for you. Your father wanted you to have it when you were old enough.” **LIAR!!!** (of course that wasn’t the only thing he lied to Luke about) So was that Anakin’s saber or his own that he picked up at the banks of the great lazy lava river? I assume it was Anakin’s, OB figuring “Hmm, don’t wanna let a good lightsaber go to waste. Not like he can use a blue one any longer.” ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/173 "2005-05-20T20:17:11Z")
I’m really not getting all the hate for this movie. I really enjoyed it, and thought it was much improved over the last two. Do I have some nits to pick? Sure. Here’s my big one: The thrown-in exposition at the end where Yoda tells Obi Wan about Qui Gon’s return from the dead. That’s one of the rules of screenwriting is to only show the most interesting stuff in the story. If somebody comes back from the dead in your story, that’s pretty fucking interesting. He should have just left it hanging and not even tried to explain it. It’s one of the mysteries of the Force. But that’s a nit, and compared to the vast amount of stuff the movie got right, it’s not a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/174 "2005-05-20T20:19:06Z")
> [@Max Carnage](#): > > So was that Anakin’s saber or his own that he picked up at the banks of the great lazy lava river? I assume it was Anakin’s, OB figuring “Hmm, don’t wanna let a good lightsaber go to waste. Not like he can use a blue one any longer.” Yes, that was Aanakin’s saber, the same one he gives to Luke in _New Hope_, so he wasn’t lying. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/175 "2005-05-20T20:19:59Z")
The Death Star in Ep. IV is definitely new. I think it’s even mentioned in the opening crawl. But think of the scenes with Governor Tarkin and Princess Leia. When he’s getting ready to pulverize Alderaan, he tells her that it’s a test to certify that the station is operational, and that they’ve chosen the planet to test on because of her reluctance to tell them where the rebel base is. And after she lies to them, he says that Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration, implying that they’re also trying to show off the new battle station to keep people in line. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/176 "2005-05-20T20:20:12Z")
He lied about Anakin ever saying he’d like his weapon passed on to his kid. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/177 "2005-05-20T20:22:37Z")
> [@Max Carnage](#): > > He lied about Anakin ever saying he’d like his weapon passed on to his kid. Yes, right after he lied about Vader killing Luke’s father. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/178 "2005-05-20T20:23:17Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > I’m really not getting all the hate for this movie. I really enjoyed it, and thought it was much improved over the last two. Do I have some nits to pick? Sure. Here’s my big one: The thrown-in exposition at the end where Yoda tells Obi Wan about Qui Gon’s return from the dead. That’s one of the rules of screenwriting is to only show the most interesting stuff in the story. If somebody comes back from the dead in your story, that’s pretty fucking interesting. He should have just left it hanging and not even tried to explain it. It’s one of the mysteries of the Force. > > But that’s a nit, and compared to the vast amount of stuff the movie got right, it’s not a big deal. They cut the scene of Yoda communing with Qui Gon. Which is a shame. Show show show, but instead they chose to tell. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/179 "2005-05-20T20:25:35Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > On the Death Star - where is it written that the Death Star was new at the battle of Yavin? I don’t remember any references in ANH that it was a new beast. Meaning I don’t think it took 20 years to build - I think they just built it in, dunno, 5 years or so and then used it in the interim to terrorize the galaxy. Remember, it had its own propulsion systems. I’m thinking that it was in there to show us how Sidious was going to establish control, not that “here’s the thing that you’ll get to see 20 years later.” It seems to me that the Death Star was a fairly established reality in ANH. But I could be wrong. > > I seem to recall that it was stated somewhere that Death Star mark II was a good deal bigger than the first; something like twice or four times as big. _TAGGE: Until this battle station is fully operational we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well equipped. They’re more dangerous than you realize. MOTTI: Any attack made by the Rebels against this station would be a useless gesture, no matter what technical data they’ve obtained. This station is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we use it! TARKIN: This bickering is pointless. Lord Vader will provide us with the location of the Rebel fortress by the time this station is operational. We will then crush the Rebellion with one swift stroke._ –A New Hope ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551/180 "2005-05-20T20:27:55Z")
It was worth waiting in line three hours to see, and simply blew episodes I and II out of the water. I thought almost all of the lose ends were wrapped up well, although I feel the whole Sifo Dyas (or however it’s spelled) issue was left hanging. How did he die? What happened to him? Who paid for this clone army? If Palpatine arranged it, why wasn’t he checking up on it every now and then? > [@Orual](#): > > And [Ewan M] managed to not look too ridiculous riding a dire iguana. That’s impressive. I loved that lizard. I thought he and Anikin bonded awfully quickly, though. > [@Orual](#): > > I loved Padme’s one good line (about liberty dying to thunderous applause). Best line in the whole movie. > [@Draelin](#): > > In the later books, it’s made clear that all droids are supposed to have periodic wipes to keep them functioning correctly… The droids are running Microsoft Windows? That explains sooooo much! > [@silk1976](#): > > In Episode IV, how does Leia know of Obi-wan? Did I miss something? She puts the schematics of the death star in R2D2 with a message to Obiwan. It’s clear in Episode III that Bail Organa (Leia’s adopted dad) and Obi-Wan know each other quite well. If she has to bail out fast with the plans, of course Organa would send her to Obi-Wan. > [@Chronos](#): > > And I didn’t like the Death Star shot, either… It seemed like pointless fan-service. Yeah, they could have started the second one before the Battle of Yavin, but _why_? They certainly didn’t anticipate the first one being destroyed, and one Death Star is really all you need. What, you’ve never heard of backups? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-revenge-of-the-sith-unboxed-spoilers/304551.md?page=10)