# Thoughts on the Kobayashi Maru **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813 "2013-01-11T02:09:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/21 "2013-01-11T20:48:47Z")
The thing that really annoys me about the Wrath of Khan interpretation of history is that people say “Kirk never faced the no-win scenario.” He _took the fucking test._ When he realized it was supposed to be a no-win scenario, he _took it again._ When he realized the only way to win was to fuck the other guy (the other guy being the computer), he took the test a third time and fucking won. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/22 "2013-01-11T21:24:25Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > The thing that really annoys me about the Wrath of Khan interpretation of history is that people say “Kirk never faced the no-win scenario.” He _took the fucking test._ When he realized it was supposed to be a no-win scenario, he _took it again._ When he realized the only way to win was to fuck the other guy (the other guy being the computer), he took the test a third time and fucking won. He did never face the no-win scenario. The purpose of the test was to show the students that there are times when all the choices are bad and yet they still have to make that choice and live with it. Kirk refused to believe that there are no-win scenerios. He thought that he could always win. When reality would not go along with that he rejected reality and substituted his own. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/23 "2013-01-11T22:10:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > He did never face the no-win scenario. The purpose of the test was to show the students that there are times when all the choices are bad and yet they still have to make that choice and live with it. Kirk refused to believe that there are no-win scenerios. He thought that he could always win. When reality would not go along with that he rejected reality and substituted his own. How could he not have faced the scenario when, the first two times he took it, he took exactly the same test everybody else did? Or are you saying, nobody faced a no-win scenario and Kirk was the only one smart enough to figure that out? He may not have taken away from the test the lesson they were intending him to learn, but he took the test and faced the situation. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/24 "2013-01-11T22:17:37Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > He may not have taken away from the test the lesson they were intending him to learn, but he took the test and faced the situation. It depends upon who is grading. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/25 "2013-01-11T22:25:27Z")
There’s something I don’t like about Scotty’s solution. No, it’s not his tactics themselves: Those make perfect sense. The part I don’t like is how, even after having been shown those tactics on a silver platter, Starfleet still didn’t make them standard combat procedure. How moronic are they? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/26 "2013-01-11T22:26:05Z")
Some similar threads [ONE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEcQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D515678&ei=0JDwUMixIKnE2gWOr4CYBA&usg=AFQjCNESFJg9FUt-Ygso-CHkOa_h3Z10cg&sig2=6TN7IObq6i_DcspiTWTAzw&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.b2I) [TWO](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D517281&ei=0JDwUMixIKnE2gWOr4CYBA&usg=AFQjCNFQ01JppASIaXjgAatyXPYqYruHTw&sig2=54hzicI3kgPYndzRsVoTYg&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.b2I) [THREE](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&ved=0CIABEBYwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fboards.straightdope.com%2Fsdmb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D108446&ei=0JDwUMixIKnE2gWOr4CYBA&usg=AFQjCNFJ_uDfdAYnK546GbAhkiZAXBomeg&sig2=w3XSVgMSJIBu_1pslllw_A&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.b2I) [GOOGLE](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=Kobayashi+Maru&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=straightdope.com&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/27 "2013-01-11T22:26:19Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > In the TOS novel _Kobayashi Maru_ (#47 in the Pocket series), we learn how Kirk, Sulu, Scotty and Chekov all handled the test. (I highly recommend the book.) For those who want to know, spoilers are below. Whoa, I gotta read that book! ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/28 "2013-01-11T22:57:42Z")
The KM scenario reminds me of this old joke: _A young naval student was being put through the paces by an old sea captain. “What would you do if a sudden storm sprang up on the starboard?” asked the captain.”Throw out an anchor, sir.” replied the naval student.”What would you do if another storm sprang up aft?” asked the captain.”Throw out another anchor, sir.” answered the student.”And if another terrific storm sprang up forward, what would you do?” asked the captain.”Throw out another anchor.” replied the student.”Hold on,” said the Captain. “Where are you getting all your anchors from?”The naval student replied, “From the same place you’re getting all of your storms, sir.”_ I’m also reminded of a (apocryphal) story of an astronaut interview where he was asked what he would do if his ship’s engines were broken and only had an hour to live, how would he spend his last hour. Answer: “I’d work on the engines.” I’d be teaching my cadets to [never give up, never surrender](http://www.amazon.com/Never-Give-Up-Surrender-Sticker/dp/B0062PMZPK). ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/29 "2013-01-11T23:02:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s something I don’t like about Scotty’s solution. No, it’s not his tactics themselves: Those make perfect sense. The part I don’t like is how, even after having been shown those tactics on a silver platter, Starfleet still didn’t make them standard combat procedure. How moronic are they? Most likely the tricks he used were things that would work in the simulation but not in real life. Essentially, he was taking advantage of shortcuts and sloppiness in the simulation’s physics engine and AI. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/30 "2013-01-11T23:08:16Z")
Lt. Saavik’s test, performance, then, seems to indicate what? She went ahead and entered the Neutral Zone (in violation of treaty), and as soon as she saw that she sprung a trap, tried to flee. “We’re in over our head. Mr. Sulu, get us out of here.” The ship is not allowed to flee, and pretty much her next orders were to abandon ship. Not a whole lot of attempt at diplomacy, improvisation, or battle skill. Admiral Kirk probably wasn’t too impressed. What do you think Mr. Spock’s evaluation would be? (Hell, if all the test is designed to do is is to get the students to reflect on themselves, instructor evaluation is probably not required.) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/31 "2013-01-11T23:29:25Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > What do you think Mr. Spock’s evaluation would be? That once she had allowed emotions such as compassion and sympathy for the people on the KM to affect her judgment, she reacted in a manner both logical and according to Starfleet protocol, neutral zone rules notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/32 "2013-01-11T23:31:22Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > Most likely the tricks he used were things that would work in the simulation but not in real life. Essentially, he was taking advantage of shortcuts and sloppiness in the simulation’s physics engine and AI. Yes. The trick where he beamed torpedoes into the juncture points of the enemy shields was specifically something that _should_ work according to theory, but didn’t for unknown reasons. Scotty knew that (and in fact performed the original experiment proving it), but the simulation just knew how the physics were “supposed” to work and let the tactic work. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/33 "2013-01-12T00:36:21Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Lt. Saavik’s test, performance, then, seems to indicate what? > > She went ahead and entered the Neutral Zone (in violation of treaty), and as soon as she saw that she sprung a trap, tried to flee. “We’re in over our head. Mr. Sulu, get us out of here.” The ship is not allowed to flee, and pretty much her next orders were to abandon ship. > > Not a whole lot of attempt at diplomacy, improvisation, or battle skill. > > Admiral Kirk probably wasn’t too impressed. > > What do you think Mr. Spock’s evaluation would be? > > (Hell, if all the test is designed to do is is to get the students to reflect on themselves, instructor evaluation is probably not required.) IIRC, in the novelization for ST2, Sulu took out about a dozen warbirds while attempting to escape. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/34 "2013-01-12T01:33:56Z")
Captains should never get themselves in a ‘no win’ scenario to begin with - you never head into a situation you don’t think you can come back from. That’s what red-shirts are for. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/35 "2013-01-12T01:53:30Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > You think he’s not? Other than the different middle initial on a tombstone (later wanked away as an in-joke between Kirk and Mitchell) is there any indication of that? That was a bit inflammatory, I suppose, but even aside from the middle initial there are differences in the Enterprise and the crew uniforms between “Where No Man Has Gone Before” and the rest of the series. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/36 "2013-01-12T02:45:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > You’d be surprised how convincing a full-immersion simulation can be when you get into it. Throw enough stuff at the candidate and they forget they are in a simulation for a bit. There is an episode of Myth Busters where they test the myth of Joe Blow landing a large jetliner on directions only. So, off to the simulator it is. Adam and Jammie take it somewhat seriously but have some fun. The older simulator supervisor guy who tries to talk them down IIRC looks visibly ill from the whole experience. It was interesting to see. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/37 "2013-01-12T02:56:42Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > How could he not have faced the scenario when, the first two times he took it, he took exactly the same test everybody else did? Or are you saying, nobody faced a no-win scenario and Kirk was the only one smart enough to figure that out? > > He may not have taken away from the test the lesson they were intending him to learn, but he took the test and faced the situation. Because he rejected the idea of a no-win solution. To him there never is a no win solution. It is not that he never took the KM test. He obviously did. That’s the whole point. To him there is no no-win situation. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/38 "2013-01-12T08:06:49Z")
Saavik got her ass kicked, no two ways about it, in the _Wrath of Khan_ film, but in the novelization: She entered the Neutral Zone, and the first thing she did was order a security team and medical team to the main transporter room, to prepare to board the _Kobayashi Maru_ if necessary. The moment she saw three Klingon ships approaching at 0.75_c,_ she ordered warp six, but immediately canceled it when four more Klingon ships appeared dead ahead, and changed course. Her strategy was (since the _Enterprise’s_ top speed was faster than that of the Klingon ships), if they could lure the Klingon ships far enough away at the Klingons’ top speed, they could double back even faster, and rescue the survivors before the Klingons could catch up with them again. The strategy failed, however, when another group of three Klingon ships appeared, bringing it to a total of 10, and then the _Enterprise_ got pounded. Saavik lampshaded this later when speaking to Kirk: “In your experience, how often have the Klingons sent ten cruisers after a single Starfleet vessel?” Another good book I recommend reading. But get it in the omnibus edition, entitled _Star Trek: Signature Edition: Duty, Honor, Redemption._ It contains the novelizations of _Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock_ and _The Voyage Home._ ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/39 "2013-01-12T08:10:54Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Whoa, I gotta read that book! 😃 What’s interesting is that in my opinion, the _Kobayashi Maru_ tests aren’t even the best parts of the book. I particularly like an international-relations scenario that Sulu takes part in. I’ll say no more. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813/40 "2013-01-12T11:33:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Kirk refused to believe that there are no-win scenerios. He thought that he could always win. When reality would not go along with that he rejected reality and substituted his own. Well, he learns at the end of _Wrath of Khan_ that some realities can’t be rejected. At least until the sequel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-kobayashi-maru/646813.md?page=3)