# Thoughts on the Koran **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771 "2016-12-28T13:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/21 "2016-12-28T22:09:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oral in the sense that it is meant to be read out loud? Or that it arose from an oral tradition? Perhaps both can be meant. the name itself, Quran, in arabic is a verbal noun form meaning “Recitation” or reading, but at the time probably more recitation… It was not even fully written down during the lifetime of Mohammed, it was memorized and recited. It was the action of the Caliph Abu Bakr after Mohammed’s death after a number of reciters were killed that had the first full written version. So it is very useful to understand it as first an oral work, not one that was experienced first in reading alone, but by recitation, and this feels different I think. Even now in the Islamic tradition, what is greatly valued is the Recitation - not just reading, but the memorization and the recitation. There are the international competitions around this. > [@](#): > > Is the Quran written in poetry, in whole or in part? Does the distinction exist? I suppose we can say some parts are poety and some parts of recited verse, maybe not poetry, but it is not certainly the intentionally written narrative. I am not a literature person so I do not like to pretend to characterize what is poetry or what is not, but I think it is clear the narrative verse meant to be recited and memorized for the oral recitation has a quality different from the text that is primary written narrative. > [@](#): > > That’s an interesting way of thinking about it - “don’t create anything that would distract from the original”, if that is what you are saying. Yes, it is a very, very strong ideological bias, it feels perhaps sinful to create a work to compete with the original - which is what in its own ideological framework a believing translation will be it if it is too attractive. as a matter of rendering the original poetry if I use the idea of poetry in the wide sense > [@](#): > > But you are correct - there once was considerable resistance to the idea of the Bible in the vernacular. Being a Lutheran, I was told this was so that the priests of the Roman church could control the interpretation of the Bible. yes I am aware of the historical change, from the protestant era, although already the Latin language bible is itself a translation, so the idea of resistance seems strange to me… But the vernacular Bibles had huge effort to render them beautifully when this resistance broke. It can not be said that this is the case of the Quran where the ideological resistance remains. Thus the decades of effort as I understand it - even centuries maybe - against for the Quran only some recent (decades) of comparatively limited indivudal efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/22 "2016-12-29T12:45:28Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Perhaps both can be meant. the name itself, Quran, in arabic is a verbal noun form meaning “Recitation” or reading, but at the time probably more recitation… > > It was not even fully written down during the lifetime of Mohammed, it was memorized and recited. It was the action of the Caliph Abu Bakr after Mohammed’s death after a number of reciters were killed that had the first full written version. > > So it is very useful to understand it as first an oral work, not one that was experienced first in reading alone, but by recitation, and this feels different I think. Thanks - very interesting. > [@](#): > > yes I am aware of the historical change, from the protestant era, although already the Latin language bible is itself a translation, so the idea of resistance seems strange to me… True. As I said, I am Lutheran, so the idea of resistance as it was taught to me (whether completely accurate or not) was that the educated Church spoke Latin as well as Greek so the resistance was to translating into vernacular languages like German and English. As long as it was only Greek and Hebrew and the Vulgate in Latin, the Christian Scriptures were still under control of the Church. But thanks for your responses. A while back there was a thread to discuss the Quran in CS, but it fizzled out. And the pastor at my church wrote his doctoral thesis on Islam in Cameroon, where he was a missionary, and he led a series on Islam during our adult education hour for a while. Part of my long-term attempts to educate myself is to read the major writings of the world’s religions. I have done the Bible (many times), the Quran, the Analects of Confucius, the writings of the Buddha, and the Book of Mormon. I am considering tackling _Doctrines and Covenants_ and learn more about Mormonism, if I can find it online or as an audiobook. Or perhaps I should do the Hadith and learn more about Islam, but I don’t know enough to be able to tell if the Hadith will distract me with sectarian controversy. Is the Hadith also considered only authentic if in the original Arabic, like the Quran is? Oops, work calls. Gotta go - thanks. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/23 "2016-12-29T13:28:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks - very interesting. > True. As I said, I am Lutheran, so the idea of resistance as it was taught to me (whether completely accurate or not) was that the educated Church spoke Latin as well as Greek so the resistance was to translating into vernacular languages like German and English. As long as it was only Greek and Hebrew and the Vulgate in Latin, the Christian Scriptures were still under control of the Church. Even after vernacular translations were being done and accepted on the continent, translation into English was a special case of prohibition. It was more of an issue of governmental control (with “divine right” authority, of course) than of the church maintaining control. Of course, the church in England was the government-sanctioned church at the time. > [@](#): > > I am considering tackling _Doctrines and Covenants_ and learn more about Mormonism, if I can find it online or as an audiobook. [Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament?lang=eng) [Doctrine and Covenants of Community of Christ](http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/) (This only goes up to Section 144 as later sections are copyrighted.) Back to the original topic: [here](http://www.quranful.com/) is a very cool site with the Qur’an in both Arabic and English, with audio of both. The site plays each verse in Arabic first, then in English, then goes on to the next verse. You might notice that the Arabic recitation is more of the nature of a song, just as a cantor would read the Torah. I think that is partly what people mean when they say the Qur’an is poetry. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/24 "2016-12-29T13:41:17Z")
In a (pointless) meeting right now, but thanks - I will have a look. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/25 "2016-12-29T13:47:35Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > Find the Jews & Infidels hiding behind every Bush & Tree and cut off their heads . That’s pretty much the message. The Koran demands that its believers kill anyone who isn’t Muslim. > **[The Quran's Verses of Violence](https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx)** > > A sampling of violence in the Quran. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/26 "2016-12-29T13:52:24Z")
If you haven’t heard compliments for the Old Testament’s prose, you haven’t met many Hebrew speakers. True story: a few years ago, my wife and I were watching some series of, when one of the characters started to read a passage from the King James Bible. I happened to look over at her, and saw an expression of shock on he face. Me: What happened? Her: What IS that? Me: I’m pretty sure it’s Psalms 23. Her: But they’re ruining it! Me: …it’s the standard translation… Her: Tell them to stop. My wife - who, incidentally, is an atheist - was absolutely right. English translations of the Jewish Bible are crap. They get the words, but they miss the music. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/27 "2016-12-29T13:54:36Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That’s pretty much the message. The Koran demands that its believers kill anyone who isn’t Muslim. > [The Quran's Verses of Violence](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx) Nice hate site. Seriously, is that what you consider a contribution to this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Donpeyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Donpeyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donpeyote)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/28 "2016-12-29T14:27:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nice hate site. Seriously, is that what you consider a contribution to this discussion? The Koran is bad Mojo . ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/29 "2016-12-29T14:46:41Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That’s pretty much the message. The Koran demands that its believers kill anyone who isn’t Muslim. > [The Quran's Verses of Violence](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx) “Since when did they learn to read Arabic?” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/30 "2016-12-29T14:47:58Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Even allowing for the fact that the translations almost certainly value accuracy over beauty, the translations are repetitive… I understand that might be at least in part a feature of Arabic. According to classroom talks during my translation coursework, it uses repetition a lot more than European languages. ---
**Author:** ![Lydia\_Phalfav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Lydia\_Phalfav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lydia_Phalfav)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/31 "2016-12-29T15:29:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nice hate site. Seriously, is that what you consider a contribution to this discussion? No, islam is a cult based on deception & violence. It’s NOT hatred to point out the hate preached & practiced by muhammad & his followers on down to today. Hate speech is found throughout the quran & sunnah. Why is the west taking the word of a cult of mass murderers over the word of those they tried to massacre & calling them liars & haters for speaking out against islam? The majority of terrorism being committed worldwide is being done by followers of muhammad, maybe it would be wise to go study their beliefs to understand it. 2 concepts keep popping out: [taqiyya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya) & [abrogation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)). Allah is also known as the best of all deceivers, which should immediately stand out in comparison to the God of the Bible, who they say Allah is. God was not a deceiver, but Satan is. Qur’an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/32 "2016-12-29T15:36:34Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > The Koran is bad Mojo . Anything to say about the Bible verses I quoted? At least when it comes to the story of Noah God doesn’t come off looking quite so mad in the Quran. There is no automatic buy-in for family members(one son pretends to believe, then drowns while hiding on a mountaintop), in some verses it is indicated that there were some non-family conversions that got onboard, they were instructed to gather pairs of every animal available to them(not every animal on Earth), and most significantly (as far as I can tell) The Flood was designed to wipe out the unbelievers of Noah’s people-it was not apparently world-wide in scope. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/33 "2016-12-29T15:44:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Exodus 22:18: “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” > Exodus 22:20: “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.” > Leviticus 20:13: “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” > Psalms 79:6: “Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.” KC & The Sunshine Band 1:1: “Do a little dance, Make a little love, Get Down Tonight” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/34 "2016-12-29T15:49:15Z")
> [@Lydia\_Phalfav](#): > > Allah is also known as the best of all deceivers, which should immediately stand out in comparison to the God of the Bible, who they say Allah is. God was not a deceiver, but Satan is. > Qur’an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers. I’ve seen that Christian mistranslation before of “And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.” if you want a little background on that verse from a source not predisposed to hate, you might try reading [this.](https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/response-to-critics-claim-allah-is-a-deceiver-quran-354/) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/35 "2016-12-29T15:53:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > That’s pretty much the message. The Koran demands that its believers kill anyone who isn’t Muslim. > [The Quran's Verses of Violence](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx) No, it doesn’t. You’ve been sold a lie. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/36 "2016-12-29T16:46:36Z")
Wow … if Muslims are supposed to kill any non-Muslim … there’s a shit load of Muslims out there who aren’t very good at being Muslim … where do people come up with this ignorance … and it’s stone cold blind ignorance … consider the world’s most populous Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, I know they have some problems, but she’s hardly a hotbed of terrorism … Does racism by any other word still stink like shit? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/37 "2016-12-29T19:10:16Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I understand that might be at least in part a feature of Arabic. According to classroom talks during my translation coursework, it uses repetition a lot more than European languages. Yes it is an aspect of the rhetorical style, but it maybe can also be tied to aspects of the grammar where it is possible to use a doubling to indicate an emphasis. > [@Clothahump](#): > > That’s pretty much the message. The Koran demands that its believers kill anyone who isn’t Muslim. > [The Quran's Verses of Violence](http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx) Oh how nice, the angry stupid person who thinks he is smart but in fact is very stupid and goes around complaining about warnings has come in to share with us that he is also a very stupid bigot. Of course we have the real record of history - for one thousand years the Muslims actively did not slay non Muslims, in fact it was much better to be the religious minority (whether christian or Jewish or other) under a Muslim rule than under the Christians - who developed the nice habit of burning even their internal dissenters alive and had the ideology of conversion or die - so the Middle east still has strange little religious minorities like the Yazidis - where in the Christian Europe not one single pre christian religion survived even a century of christian rule. Luckily for the Muslims, we had the built in tax incentives for the regimes to not follow such thinking. > [@Lydia\_Phalfav](#): > > 2 concepts keep popping out: [taqiyya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya) It is always amusing to see the religious bigots bringing up this, and using the Shia idea in a kind of way like the Elder Protocols text… > [@watchwolf49](#): > > Wow … if Muslims are supposed to kill any non-Muslim … there’s a shit load of Muslims out there who aren’t very good at being Muslim … where do people come up with this ignorance … and it’s stone cold blind ignorance … consider the world’s most populous Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, I know they have some problems, but she’s hardly a hotbed of terrorism … > > Does racism by any other word still stink like shit? The angry stupid bigot and racist will come back to shout that the Muslims are not a race, so he is only guilty of being an angry stupid bigot in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Niceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3be4f8/32.png) [@Niceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Niceman)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/38 "2016-12-29T19:12:10Z")
In the shades of the forementioned story: > [@](#): > > The sūrah refers to the Prophet’s marriage to Zaynab bint Jaĥsh and the rulings and directives that preceded or followed it. > God’s will then dictated that the Prophet should undertake the annulment of the effects of adoption himself, by marrying Zayd’s divorcee. He was to confront society with this action, which no man could undertake despite the earlier prohibition against adoption. Therefore, God informed His Messenger that Zayd would be divorcing Zaynab and that he would marry her, and all to fulfil God’s purpose. By this time, relations between Zayd and Zaynab were troubled, the parties themselves aware that their marriage would not last long. > Time after time, Zayd complained to the Prophet that his life with Zaynab was not a happy one, saying that he could not carry on with her. Brave as he was in clearly and unhesitatingly confronting his people in matters of faith, the Prophet felt that the burden of Zaynab’s situation was too heavy for him to carry. He was uneasy about confronting people with the practical destruction of their old adoption tradition. Zayd was also very close to the Prophet. Therefore, he said to Zayd:\*\* “Hold on to your wife and have fear of God.”\*\* In so doing, he was delaying this serious challenge to social norms: \*\*“And thus you would hide in your heart that which God wanted to bring to light. You stood in awe of people, whereas it was God alone of whom you should have stood in awe.” \*\*The Prophet knew that God would eventually bring it all to light, just as he knew through God’s inspiration that it would take place. It was, thus, not a clear order from God. Had it been so, he would not have hesitated, not delayed for a moment. He would have declared it on the spot no matter what consequences he might have expected. Instead, it was simply an inspiration countered by the outcome he feared would take place. He thus waited until it was God’s will for it to happen, for Zayd to divorce Zaynab with neither of them paying any thought o what would happen next. The prevailing tradition considered Zaynab as divorced by Muĥammad’s son, and as such she was permanently unlawful for Muĥammad to marry. Up to this point, marriage between a man and the divorcee of his former adopted son was still unlawful. Changes to this rule had to wait until the Prophet’s marriage to Zaynab, so that it could be practically established, despite people’s reluctance. > These facts refute all contrary reports upheld by people hostile to Islam, in the past as well as in the present, and who have fabricated all sorts of legends around the situation. > The whole thing was exactly as God said: **“When Zayd had come to the end of his union with her, We gave her to you in marriage, so that no blame should attach to the believers for marrying the spouses of their adopted sons when the latter have come to the end of their union with them.”** This was, then, one of the heavy burdens the Prophet had o bear in connection with his message. Extremely uneasy, he had to face society with it. Indeed he was reluctant to so confront people, even though he had no hesitation whatsoever in confronting them with the essence of faith based on God’s oneness, or with his denunciation of false deities and alleged partners with God, or with criticizing their forefathers. > **“God’s will must be fulfilled.”** It cannot be overturned. It just comes about and nothing can stop it. Therefore, the Prophet’s marriage to Zaynab took place after she had completed her waiting period. He then sent Zayd, her former husband and the person he loved most, to carry his proposal o her. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/39 "2016-12-29T20:38:40Z")
Don’t get me wrong … I’m not saying Muslims are completely innocent … they did invent Algebra after all … ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/40 "2016-12-29T21:08:34Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Don’t get me wrong … I’m not saying Muslims are completely innocent … they did invent Algebra after all … C’mon, that was a single guy! You can’t blame a whole religion for the actions of a single man! (Plus, as much as I’m definitely not an algebra person, it does make things easier for the non-geometrical). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771.md?page=3)