# Thoughts on the Koran **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771 "2016-12-28T13:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/41 "2016-12-29T21:55:39Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Just one item – the Koran is said by its readers to be a piece of beautiful writing. It’s the only religious text I’ve ever heard that claim about\*. Not one translation I’ve read comes close to fulfilling that promise of beautiful writing. Um, there are _lots_ of people who have described the King James Bible as “the most beautiful literary text in the English Language”. The KJV is obviously a translation, not an original religious text, and my understanding is it’s much more ‘beautiful’ as a text than the Greek NT that it was based on, but there’s an example of a religious text which is widely viewed as very beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/42 "2016-12-29T22:03:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If you haven’t heard compliments for the Old Testament’s prose, you haven’t met many Hebrew speakers. > > True story: a few years ago, my wife and I were watching some series of, when one of the characters started to read a passage from the King James Bible. I happened to look over at her, and saw an expression of shock on he face. > > Me: What happened? > > Her: What IS that? > > Me: I’m pretty sure it’s Psalms 23. > > Her: But they’re ruining it! > > Me: …it’s the standard translation… > > Her: Tell them to stop. > > My wife - who, incidentally, is an atheist - was absolutely right. English translations of the Jewish Bible are crap. They get the words, but they miss the music. My standard translation is the Jerusalem Bible. It was introduced to me by the Franciscans at Siena College in New York. It came from Hebrew and Greek sources translated into French, and then from French into English. I feel like it’s more well written than the King James. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/43 "2016-12-30T01:00:12Z")
> [@](#): > > …Hebrew and Greek sources translated into French… Some minor differences. For instance, “render unto Caesar” becomes “surrender unto Caesar”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/44 "2016-12-30T05:51:10Z")
> [@Lydia\_Phalfav](#): > > No, islam is a cult based on deception & violence. This is a stunningly ignorant and obviously bigoted statement. More to the point, the statement itself is a lie, which of course is ironic given that you’re castigating a religion you evidently know little to nothing about as deceptive. > [@](#): > > It’s NOT hatred to point out the hate preached & practiced by muhammad & his followers on down to today. It is hatred when you intentionally spread misinformation. > [@](#): > > Hate speech is found throughout the quran & sunnah. Define “hate speech”. Your posts on the subject of Islam certainly are: speech calculated to demonize, to discredit a person or group of people without regard to fact. > [@](#): > > Why is the west taking the word of a cult of mass murderers over the word of those they tried to massacre Could it be because the vast majority of the members of that religion are not mass murderers nor even attempted mass murderers? That would make the religion not a cult of mass murderers. Those who pretend that Islam itself, as if it were some monolithic behemoth, are trying to massacre them obviously have not been massacred. That tends to give the lie to your screeds. > [@](#): > > & calling them liars & haters for speaking out against islam? No, you ignorant bigot; you’re being called a liar because you are, in fact, lying about Islam and Muslims. > [@](#): > > The majority of terrorism being committed worldwide is being done by followers of muhammad, maybe it would be wise to go study their beliefs to understand it. I’d have to see quite reputable studies before I accept that “the majority of terrorism committed worldwide is being done by” Muslims. Here’s a short primer for you about non-Muslim terrorists: Hindus killing Muslims, Buddhists killing Muslims, Christians killing non-Christians. > [@](#): > > 2 concepts keep popping out: taqiyya > & abrogation It’s quite amusing to me to see that you actually linked to a real explanation of both concepts yet completely blew by that explanation. Taqiya is not permission to lie just to lie. It’s permission to lie when faced with punishment (such as execution) for declaring one is Muslim. Abrogation is certainly something that a Christian should have no problem with. After all, there’s quite the litany of verses in the Old Testament which Christianity has abrogated. But, hey, whining about Islamic abrogation does put you in quite the quandary, doesn’t it? You complain about a verse in the Qur’an (often one that’s bee abrogated) yet you then complain about the verse being abrogated! > [@](#): > > Allah is also known as the best of all deceivers, which should immediately stand out in comparison to the God of the Bible, who they say Allah is. God was not a deceiver, but Satan is. > Qur’an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers. So how do you square Adam and Eve not kicking off right after they dined on the forbidden fruit? Here’s something: I would be quite surprised if you turned out to be a Literalist Christian, yet you seem to believe that all Muslims must be and, in fact, are literalists to your version of the Qur’an. And you bitch about deception. Amazing. I forgot to mention something (and I’m sure the folks over on GB will get a kick out of it): Your use of the term _cult_ tells more about you than about your target. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/45 "2016-12-30T14:17:28Z")
> [@Lydia\_Phalfav](#): > > No, islam is a cult based on deception & violence. It’s NOT hatred to point out the hate preached & practiced by muhammad & his followers on down to today. Have you ever read the Old Testament? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/46 "2016-12-30T17:42:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Have you ever read the Old Testament? I have … rough stuff for sure … do you know how hard it is to find turtle doves in SW Wisconsin in January? … I sure hope a single chicken is close enough … [blush] … I guess I skipped over some of the Chronicles … meh … ---
**Author:** ![Donpeyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Donpeyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donpeyote)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/47 "2016-12-30T18:49:46Z")
The Pro Arab force is strong with them . ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/48 "2016-12-30T18:52:17Z")
> [@](#): > > … I guess I skipped over some of the Chronicles … You can skip a lot of Leviticus, its mostly scolding. You see, in order to get along with God, have Him restrain from punishing you, you have to avoid doing stuff that pisses Him off. And there’s a _lot_ of them. ---
**Author:** ![Donpeyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Donpeyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donpeyote)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/49 "2016-12-30T18:54:12Z")
How many “Operating” Jewish Temples exist in Saudi Arabia or other Major Arab countries (Other than Turkey) ??? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/50 "2016-12-30T19:01:51Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > How many “Operating” Jewish Temples exist in Saudi Arabia or other Major Arab countries (Other than Turkey) ??? I don’t know about other Arab countries but I believe Mohammed commanded before his death that only the religion of Allah should be allowed in the prophet’s native country and Saudi Arabia still adheres to that. Pretty tough if you believe someone is divinely inspired to ignore their wishes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/51 "2016-12-30T19:28:08Z")
The Prophet didn’t have a native country, he had a native clan, which is about as close as they got to our idea of a nation-state. Such a commandment would have been nonsense. Christianity includes Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Francis of Assisi, and Savaronola and Elmer Gantry. If I present you _only_ with the last two as representative of Christianity, then I am telling you the truth, because they are. But my “truth” is a lie, a lie of omission. As is yours. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/52 "2016-12-30T19:38:52Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > How many “Operating” Jewish Temples exist in Saudi Arabia or other Major Arab countries (Other than Turkey) ??? Turkey is not an Arab country. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > I don’t know about other Arab countries but I believe Mohammed commanded before his death that only the religion of Allah should be allowed in the prophet’s native country and Saudi Arabia still adheres to that. Pretty tough if you believe someone is divinely inspired to ignore their wishes. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/53 "2016-12-30T20:08:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Prophet didn’t have a native country, he had a native clan, which is about as close as they got to our idea of a nation-state. Such a commandment would have been nonsense. > > Christianity includes Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Francis of Assisi, and Savaronola and Elmer Gantry. If I present you _only_ with the last two as representative of Christianity, then I am telling you the truth, because they are. But my “truth” is a lie, a lie of omission. > > As is yours. Why don’t you study more and blether less? From Chapter L of the Decline and Fall: > [@](#): > > Under the reign of Omar, the Jews of Chaibar were transported to Syria; and the caliph alleged the injunction of his dying master; that one and the true religion should be professed in his native land of Arabia. And if you’re going to attack Gibbon don’t waste your time. Go argue with his sources for the statement of Omar, a companion of the prophet: [Al-Tabari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari), a ninth century Persian historian and [Elmacin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Elmacin) or Ibn al-'Amid, a Coptic Christian historian of the 13th century. Of course Mohammed would have considered Arabia as his native land. Why wouldn’t he? OK, I should have used the word land rather than country but any knowledgeable person would have known that I was not referring to a nation-state. Next time try to fight ignorance rather than so cavalierly and confidently encouraging its spread. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/54 "2016-12-30T22:16:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You can skip a lot of Leviticus, its mostly scolding. You see, in order to get along with God, have Him restrain from punishing you, you have to avoid doing stuff that pisses Him off. And there’s a _lot_ of them. There’s a lot to be learned in Leviticus … it’s worthy of study … in fact, the case can be made that being ignorant of The Law is to be ignorant of Christ … how else do we know what we’re being redeemed from? But if you want to perfume your tax returns … don’t let me stop you … [Lev 5:11] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/55 "2016-12-31T03:36:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > …And if you’re going to attack Gibbon don’t waste your time… He was said to have squandered his mental capacity with silly board games. “Always scrabble, scrabble, scrabble, eh, Mr. Gibbon?”, it was famously remarked. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/56 "2016-12-31T10:38:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He was said to have squandered his mental capacity with silly board games. “Always scrabble, scrabble, scrabble, eh, Mr. Gibbon?”, it was famously remarked. That’s all you have for your crass blunder above? A stupid pun on George III’s remark to Gibbon? Something short of a satisfactory response, n’est-ce pas? Still at least you had the balls to reply, if only with a dumb joke. I half-suspected you wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/57 "2016-12-31T11:29:21Z")
Although elucidator is a boring and annoying person not even 1 per cent as clever as he thinks he is, he is correct. First, the citing of an \*\*eighteenth century \*\* British historian relying on his limited second sources is beyond stupid, it is in fact retarded. Even if you are talking about his principal focus, this writing is far surpassed. Second, before the Wahhabine the tradition was about Mecca not the country (state) and there is fine written record in the Jewish Arabic writing of the Arab Jewish communitis the the territories that are now the Saudi Arabia. If you want to make the historical comment and not read only fun literature, read something modern and do not make yourself ridiculous by relying surpassed literary workd. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/58 "2016-12-31T14:22:27Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Although elucidator is a boring and annoying person not even 1 per cent as clever as he thinks he is, he is correct. Aw, look who’s being coquettish today! ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/59 "2016-12-31T15:05:44Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nice hate site. Seriously, is that what you consider a contribution to this discussion? What hate site? Outlining 109 verses in the Koran that call for Muslims to kill non-Muslims is hate? Dude, it’s a list. Are you trying to pretend the verses don’t exist? Yes, it was a very valid contribution to the discussion. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/60 "2016-12-31T15:08:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, it doesn’t. You’ve been sold a lie. Really? Let’s just pick one verse at random: > [@](#): > > Quran (5:33) - “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement” That doesn’t advocate violence and murder? Gee, sure looks like it does to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771.md?page=4)