# Thoughts on the Koran **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771 "2016-12-28T13:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/61 "2016-12-31T15:09:09Z")
[Here’s a bunch from the Bible](http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/murder-in-the-bible/). Deal with _it_. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/62 "2016-12-31T15:11:11Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What hate site? Outlining 109 verses in the Koran that call for Muslims to kill non-Muslims is hate? Dude, it’s a list. Are you trying to pretend the verses don’t exist? > > Yes, it was a very valid contribution to the discussion. Deal with it. They don’t call for them to kill non-Muslims, and they’ve never been interpreted that way. They refer to the war between the Muslims, and the Meccans and their allies. The hate site in question plucks them out of both their context within the Quran, and their historical context. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/63 "2016-12-31T15:12:27Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Oh how nice, the angry stupid person who thinks he is smart but in fact is very stupid and goes around complaining about warnings has come in to share with us that he is also a very stupid bigot. Fuck off. I posted a link to a website that listed 109 verses in the Koran that call for killing, or violence to, non-Muslims. In what way does that make me angry or stupid or bigoted? Oh, sorry - I forgot. That’s straight out of the liberal handbook. When a conservatives states facts that can’t be denied, attack the conservative personally, in much the same manner as a five year old namecalling in the sandbox. Or is it possibly just a personal unfounded bias against me? After all, you didn’t say a word about the post that I responded to: Join Date: Nov 2006 [QUOTE=Donpeyote] Find the Jews & Infidels hiding behind every Bush & Tree and cut off their heads . [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/64 "2016-12-31T15:20:20Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Although elucidator is a boring and annoying person not even 1 per cent as clever as he thinks he is, he is correct. > > First, the citing of an \*\*eighteenth century \*\* British historian relying on his limited second sources is beyond stupid, it is in fact retarded. Even if you are talking about his principal focus, this writing is far surpassed. > > Second, before the Wahhabine the tradition was about Mecca not the country (state) and there is fine written record in the Jewish Arabic writing of the Arab Jewish communitis the the territories that are now the Saudi Arabia. > > If you want to make the historical comment and not read only fun literature, read something modern and do not make yourself ridiculous by relying surpassed literary workd. Limited second sources? Are you fucking kidding me? You clearly haven’t read Gibbon’s classic work, it would be way above your limited comprehension of English. The history is renowned for “its use of primary sources” as the Gibbon wiki puts it. And do you honestly think that I would be reading him without the copious annotations of modern scholars, who update his information and correct him when necessary, which isn’t that often actually? I had believed that you were an intelligent woman. I see that I must revise that mistaken assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/65 "2016-12-31T16:25:15Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Limited second sources? Yes, Gibbon was not an Arabist. His great primary source work of two centuries ago was in the classic European languages. And for course even there in the primary you would say limited now after two centuries of added the added research and discovery of the more primary texts. > [@](#): > > I had believed that you were an intelligent woman. I see that I must revise that mistaken assumption. And should I care for what reason? The quoting of a work not primarily strong in this subject, centuries outdated in the scholarship and the sources is an embarrassing foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/66 "2016-12-31T16:34:53Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Fuck off The amazing intelligent wit of the angry stupid bigot who so laughably believes himself clever… > [@](#): > > . I posted a link to a website that listed 109 verses in the Koran that call for killing, or violence to, non-Muslims. In what way does that make me angry or stupid or bigoted? You quoted the well known hate site with the bigoted presentation and very predictably reply with the usual red faced shouting and stamping you are so well known for here that makes you the object of wide derision. The fact you predictably retreat into the whiny cry baby rhetoric about the conservatives (as if I am a Leftists, ha) is even more sad and stupid, but does reflect what a pitiful stupid person you are. You are in short a idiot and a bigoted embarrassment, hiding behind the mama’s dress of the xcuse of I am conservative and being picked on" ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/67 "2016-12-31T16:42:52Z")
There does seem to have been an order from Umar expelling the Jews from Khaybar and the Christians from Najran based on a supposed Hadith, although to what extent it was carried out is debatable. The hadith was from abu Dawood: > [@](#): > > Jabir bin ‘Abd Allah said that he was told by ‘Umar bin Al Khattab that he heard the Apostle of Allaah say “I will certainly expel the Jews and the Christians from Arabia and I shall leave only Muslims in it.” And also: > [@](#): > > Sa’id bin Abd Al ‘Aziz said “Arabia lies between Al Wadi to the extremes of the Yemen extending to the frontiers of Al Iraq and the sea.” > Abu Dawud said “This tradition was read out to Al Harith bin Miskin while I was a witness”. Ashhab bin ‘Abd Al Aziz reported it to you on the authority of Malik who said ‘Umar expelled the people of Najran, but he did not expel (them) from Taima. For it did not fall within the territory of Arabia. As for Al Wadi, I think the Jews were not expelled from there. They did not think it a part of the land of Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/68 "2016-12-31T16:52:53Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > That’s all you have for your crass blunder above? A stupid pun on George III’s remark to Gibbon? Something short of a satisfactory response, n’est-ce pas? Still at least you had the balls to reply, if only with a dumb joke. I half-suspected you wouldn’t. I was making fun of you. Pedantic little pissant that you are, it’s likely the most fun you’ve been in years. Beside which, even an odious twit like yourself must realize that my comment was about the variety of humanity within an set of established beliefs. That any group of people, of any stripe or religious conviction, will have splendid examples of reason and generosity, as well as cramped little bigots such as yourself. That was my main point, which you chose to ignore in order to seize upon a semantic distinction, like a starving mongrel on a pork chop. If this is what passes for reasoned discourse in your “country”, you are probably English, of the land that used to be Great Britain. A better man might be more sympathetic, and if he shows up here, I will recommend you to him. As for Mr Gibbon, I have read but smatterings, I have no patience for his writing style, which will not use ten words where a hundred could be employed. But I honor him as a pioneer, setting out to create a study of History where it scarcely existed before. 'Nuff sed. (That’s a phrase in Modern Texan, likely by way of Scots/Irish settlers, if anybody could be coerced to give a shit.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/69 "2016-12-31T16:59:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There does seem to have been an order from Umar expelling the Jews from Khaybar and the Christians from Najran based on a supposed Hadith, although to what extent it was carried out is debatable. The hadith was from abu Dawood: However it has been argued this was post-hoc rationalization ( in other words an invention ) to add cover to Umar. Whatever Umar’s motivation, said hadith is a bit logically inconsistent in that neither Muhammed nor Abu Bakr apparently made any move to expel the aforementioned Jews and Christians after the post-campaign negotiations at Khaybar. Of course at this distance it is pretty impossible to draw a conclusion one way or another, but my inclination is to suspect that this action drew more from Umar’s own particular brand of zealotry. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/70 "2016-12-31T17:00:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A better man might be more sympathetic, and if he shows up here, I will recommend you to him. I’m on my break. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/71 "2016-12-31T17:01:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Here’s a bunch from the Bible](http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/murder-in-the-bible/). Deal with _it_. Actually, that was dealt with 2,000 years ago with the Second Covenant … if you do not believe in Christ, then how can you expect to understand … the one NT quote in your link doesn’t actually give permission to continue such brutalities … Christ healed the blindness of one during the Sabbath … not that we should go ahead and work all the time during the Sabbath … but gee whiz … it’s going to be okay to save a child’s life no matter how much work it is … ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/72 "2016-12-31T17:02:25Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Although elucidator is a boring and annoying person not even 1 per cent as clever as he thinks he is, he is correct… And here I had hoped to ring in the New Year with wine and weasel, but now must spend my night sobbing into my banky. You don’t have to read any of them, my username is right there, you can simply observe it, wrinkle your button nose, pick up your little basket and skip along, skip along. I make my jokes for friendly eyes, they are wasted on the dour and humorless, you cannot tickle a corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/73 "2016-12-31T17:20:06Z")
Do not worry, I almost always scroll past the non clever boring attempts you have. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/74 "2016-12-31T17:26:51Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > However it has been argued this was post-hoc rationalization ( in other words an invention ) to add cover to Umar. Whatever Umar’s motivation, said hadith is a bit logically inconsistent in that neither Muhammed nor Abu Bakr apparently made any move to expel the aforementioned Jews and Christians after the post-campaign negotiations at Khaybar. Of course at this distance it is pretty impossible to draw a conclusion one way or another, but my inclination is to suspect that this action drew more from Umar’s own particular brand of zealotry. Yes or some other political consideration now lost but then needing a pretext. In any case the idea of some deep tradition about the country of Arabia is falsified by the historical record of the Jewish Arab communitis in the Arabia through out the Islamic period and Jewish records of their communities there. A history uncomfortable to the Wahhabine and to the bigots who would valorize that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/75 "2016-12-31T17:34:23Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Do not worry, I almost always scroll past the non clever boring attempts you have. Excellent! Just raise that up a notch from “almost all” to “all”, and I can resume my previous state, happily unaware of your existence. As I mature, I realize that memory issues can be more of a boon than a detriment. Or, in your case, a blessing. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/76 "2016-12-31T18:10:49Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The quoting of a work not primarily strong in this subject, centuries outdated in the scholarship and the sources is an embarrassing foolishness. Once again you completely ignore the fact that I am reading an edition of Gibbon with full modern annotations. True, Gibbon did not read Arabic but the famed learned 17th century Orientalist Edward Pococke did and Gibbon makes full use of his works, as he did of other Arabists, as well as the primary Arabic and Persian sources, all translated into either English, French, German or Latin, in all of which Gibbon was expert. Plus, I’ll remind you again, the notes of contemporary Arabists are available in this edition. Admit it, **Ramira** , you’re completely lost discussing Gibbon or European Arabic scholarship and Wikipedia just won’t cut it for you. Quit while you have some dignity left. You were wrong. Live with it and move on. Happens to us all from time to time. My advice? Stick to what you know. ---
**Author:** ![Donpeyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Donpeyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donpeyote)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/77 "2016-12-31T18:16:13Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What hate site? Outlining 109 verses in the Koran that call for Muslims to kill non-Muslims is hate? Dude, it’s a list. Are you trying to pretend the verses don’t exist? > > Yes, it was a very valid contribution to the discussion. Deal with it. Just as speculation that if Khadija had lived that Muhammad would not have gone off the deep end (To the Cave) and the earth would not have the Koran . ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/78 "2016-12-31T18:39:20Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Really? Let’s just pick one verse at random: > > That doesn’t advocate violence and murder? Gee, sure looks like it does to me. Sorry, missed this post. First off, the next verse reads: Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Second…is it somehow unusual to kill people who are waging war on you, and haven’t surrendered? Does the United States not kill in war? The Quran does not mandate pacifism, it permits the use of violence in self-defense. That isn’t murder. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/79 "2016-12-31T19:01:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > However it has been argued this was post-hoc rationalization ( in other words an invention ) to add cover to Umar. Whatever Umar’s motivation, said hadith is a bit logically inconsistent in that neither Muhammed nor Abu Bakr apparently made any move to expel the aforementioned Jews and Christians after the post-campaign negotiations at Khaybar. Of course at this distance it is pretty impossible to draw a conclusion one way or another, but my inclination is to suspect that this action drew more from Umar’s own particular brand of zealotry. Oh, probably. It does support the Gibbon quote that the Jews of Khaybar were expelled to Syria under Umar, though, whether it was an authentic hadith or not, and Umar did seem to want to get Jews and Christians out of the Hejaz. I think there was also a community of Jews in Damascus that claimed to be descended from the expelled Jews of Khaybar and tried to use that to get some sort of special treatment from one of the Abbasid Caliphs, but I’d have to do some research on that. Of course, Benjamin of Tudela mentions Jewish communities in Khaybar and Tayma in his travelogue, so Umar’s expulsion didn’t seem to have stuck. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771/80 "2016-12-31T20:15:48Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The amazing intelligent wit of the angry stupid bigot who so laughably believes himself clever… > You quoted the well known hate site with the bigoted presentation and very predictably reply with the usual red faced shouting and stamping you are so well known for here that makes you the object of wide derision. The fact you predictably retreat into the whiny cry baby rhetoric about the conservatives (as if I am a Leftists, ha) is even more sad and stupid, but does reflect what a pitiful stupid person you are. > > You are in short a idiot and a bigoted embarrassment, hiding behind the mama’s dress of the xcuse of I am conservative and being picked on" Oh. Fuck. Off. I should quote you over into the Stupid Liberal Thread, but you’re not worth the effort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-koran/775771.md?page=5)