# Thoughts on the suspension of this professor? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 4, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830 "2020-09-04T18:08:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/221 "2020-09-06T21:44:33Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > See my post two before yours. The students who made the complaint said explicitly that they had studied Mandarin and were familiar with the word and its aural similarity to the slur. This wasn’t the basis of their complaint. I don’t think they’re suggesting that every student in the class had studied Mandarin. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/222 "2020-09-06T21:46:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t think they’re suggesting that every student in the class had studied Mandarin. Sure, but this wasn’t the basis of their complaint. They accused him of deliberately _mis_pronouncing the word and repeating it unidiomatically to make it sound _more_ like the slur and to antagonize. They were factually wrong on both points. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/223 "2020-09-06T21:50:25Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > They accused him of deliberately _mis_ pronouncing the word to make it sound _more_ like the slur; or of using it unidiomatically. They were factually wrong on both points. Granted. He late said, "I have since learned there are regional differences, yet I have always heard and pronounced the word as ‘naaga’ rhyming with ‘dega,'” The complaint was technically wrong on this point, as his pronunciation is apparently one among several accepted regional pronunciations. That technical point doesn’t seem central to the question, however, if he was using the word, not to insult black students, but to seem momentarily like he was being transgressive as a way to make his lecture more memorable. In any case, I think this is a digression. My question was whether anyone doubts that the _professor_–not the _complainants_–" knew that English-speaking American students unfamiliar with Mandarin and not taking a class in Mandarin would do a double-take on hearing it." Do you doubt that? ---
**Author:** ![Terwilliger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Terwilliger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terwilliger)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/224 "2020-09-06T21:51:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > and intended, Feel free to clarify, but you think he said the chinese filler word with the express intention of shocking the class with something that sounds like the english racial slur? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/225 "2020-09-06T21:52:54Z")
I think that was likely one of multiple intentions. If it was purely unintentional, it’s a pretty significant failure to understand how communication works on multiple levels. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/226 "2020-09-06T21:54:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He understood, and intended, that the hearer would be momentarily taken aback by the similarity between the word he said and a racist slur. You’re not the first person to make this claim. And there is still not one iota of evidence for it. No doubt he was _aware_ of the similarity, but I think in lecturing graduate students it’s reasonable to expect that they will not react on the immature level of Joey in Friends hearing the word “homo” in a lecture on anthropology, that their critical thinking skills will be adequate to understand that if you announce clearly that you’re now talking about a Chinese idiom, the students can figure out for themselves that the phonemes in an unrelated language have no semantic connection whatsoever to English. This expectation was correct in numerous prior classes where he gave this example. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/227 "2020-09-06T21:55:48Z")
And I should clarify that by “significant,” I don’t mean “firing-worthy.” If it was accidental, it’s the kind of dumbass mistake we all make. But it’s a mistake, and a professor of communications ought to acknowledge that, if it is a mistake. And that’s what he appears to be claiming, so, if it’s true, good on him for acknowledging it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/228 "2020-09-06T21:57:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > No doubt he was _aware_ of the similarity, but I think in lecturing graduate students it’s reasonable to expect that they will not react on the level of Joey in Friends hearing the word “homo” in a lecture on anthropology, that their critical thinking skills will be adequate to understand that if you announce clearly that you’re now talking about a Chinese idiom, the students can figure out for themselves that the phonemes in an unrelated language have no semantic connection whatsoever to English. This assumption was correct in all prior classes where he gave this example. That’s nonresponsive to what I’m saying. I didn’t say they’d fundamentally misunderstand what he said, I said they’d be momentarily taken aback. Do you understand the difference? Do you think most grad students wouldn’t be momentarily taken aback? ---
**Author:** ![Terwilliger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Terwilliger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terwilliger)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/229 "2020-09-06T21:57:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In any case, I think this is a digression. My question was whether anyone doubts that the _professor_ –not the _complainants_ –" knew that English-speaking American students unfamiliar with Mandarin and not taking a class in Mandarin would do a double-take on hearing it." Do you doubt that? Fine, do a double take, ask did you just say the n-word. He can reply no i said neiga, a chinese filler word that we are discussing in a communications class. And move on with your life. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/230 "2020-09-06T21:59:23Z")
> [@Terwilliger](#): > > Fine, do a double take, ask did you just say the n-word. He can reply no i said neiga, a chinese filler word that we are discussing in a communications class. And move on with your life. Okay, so you don’t doubt that. Correct? Now: do you understand that communication sometimes works on two levels simultaneously? Like, have you heard of double entendres? Do you understand how they work? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/231 "2020-09-06T22:00:39Z")
(nm, retracted) ---
**Author:** ![Terwilliger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Terwilliger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terwilliger)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/232 "2020-09-06T22:02:08Z")
But thats not what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/233 "2020-09-06T22:08:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you think most grad students wouldn’t be momentarily taken aback? So what? He may well have thought about it, and concluded at the level of a postgraduate class some kind of explicit “trigger warning” is patronizing and distracting, because students at that level are obviously smart enough to understand. Again, that was a correct analysis in all prior lectures he gave with the same content. Are we really going to say that there some burden on speakers now to worry about whether words in _other languages_ vaguely resemble offensive words in English, and no burden on the listen to have any critical thinking skills? If you’re going to make some credible circumstantial case that this professor was being _deliberately_ antagonistic here, making an “edgy joke” or something, you need to come up with some evidence of other dubious or racist behavior on his part. There is no such evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/234 "2020-09-06T22:19:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The complaint was technically wrong on this point, as his pronunciation is apparently one among several accepted regional pronunciations. Not quite, the students were _more_ wrong than this. His pronunciation is _the_ usual pronunciation in Modern Standard Mandarin (when the word is used as a filler). The first syllable in MSM is almost identical to the word “nay” in English. There are, in fact, regional non-MSM variants that sound _more_ like the English slur than the standard pronunciation that he used. It is also ubiquitously idiomatic to use the word repeatedly when it’s a filler, exactly the way he said it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/235 "2020-09-06T22:21:45Z")
At some point, you got to break students out of their American shell. You got to make them more tolerant and accepting of other cultures/languages: _“Look, other people say and do things differently than us. America is just one nation out of 200.”_ Exposure and learning is healthy. Instead, this incident just lets these students retreat further into their American-centric shell and demand that other languages and cultures accommodate them. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/236 "2020-09-06T22:30:31Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > it does seem as though he had a choice as to what language and what words to use in that language in order to make his point, and that he had a choice in how to present it. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Or I might have chosen another language > [@k9bfriender](#): > > And I could get that if he were a bilingual who just happened to refer to something, or to use filler words himself. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > He chose the language to use as an example, he chose the word in that language, and he chose to repeat it several times, in a way that would be perceived in the way that it was. > [@Jas09](#): > > So he chose Mandarin for some reason (perhaps because he was familiar with it? perhaps because he thought it was ironic or funny that it was offensive to English ears?). In case no-one has noted this in the thread yet, he chose Mandarin because he is, [per his CV](https://www.marshall.usc.edu/sites/default/files/gpatton/pci/20%20Vita%20Dr.%20Gregory%20H.%20Patton%20USC-1.pdf) (PDF), an expert on China, and a lot of his career has focused on Asia in general, and China specifically. > [@](#): > > Professor Patton primarily teaches in USC’s Full-Time MBA Program and its Executive MBA Programs in the U.S. and China. > > [snip] > > He has served as a key advisor to the Center for Asian-Pacific Leadership, a faculty member at the US-China Institute and a leader of MBA learning programs in China and Korea. He has advised on several hundred consulting engagements in more than a dozen countries and has taught and led programs in the Pacific Rim for over 20 years. > > [snip] > > Desk Officer, PM Globe, International Education Program (2010-2020). Lead a team of faculty and staff in facilitation graduate learning Programs in Korea and China for up to 75 MBA students annually. Facilitate pre-trip country conferences, academic content, logistics, site visits, and executive speakers. > > [snip] > > Tongji University, (Shanghai, China). Leadership & General Management in Action Workshop. (2014-2019). > > [snip] > > Antai Jiao Tong University, (Shanghai, China). Leadership for Chief Information Officers (CIO) (Chinese); Leadership for Technical Executive Program (LTE) (Chinese). (2014, 2015). So maybe he chose it because, in over a decade working on issues related to China, and actually spending a lot of time in China as part of his job, it’s an example that he has heard a lot, and that he feels comfortable using as a foreign-language analog for English communication issues. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think I’ve been really clear on my answer here. He said the Chinese filler word. He understood, and intended, that the hearer would be momentarily taken aback by the similarity between the word he said and a racist slur. > > Language is about communication of concepts and aesthetics through verbal means. His communication worked on two different levels. You’re focusing on only one. Are you aware of the other **possible intended communication**? Emphasis mine. But you don’t seem to be claiming a possible intention here; you seem to be claiming, unequivocally, that he knew what he was doing and intended to cause offense or alarm or surprise. I’m curious where your certainty comes from. I understand that we often make assessments about things where we don’t have full information, but in the absence of ANY other evidence, it’s pretty it’s pretty hard to get inside the head of someone you’ve never even met, based on a single utterance. You must be a savant of some sort. [In realted news:](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-09-05/usc-business-professor-controversy-chinese-word-english-slur) > [@](#): > > This week a group of nearly 100 USC alumni, most of whom are Chinese by ethnicity or nationality, wrote to the school’s administration in support of their professor, saying his use of the Mandarin word for “that” was accurate and “an entirely appropriate and quite effective illustration of the use of pauses.” ---
**Author:** ![Terwilliger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Terwilliger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terwilliger)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/237 "2020-09-06T22:33:09Z")
You and everyone trying to justify this nonsense. Did the guy say the N-word or not? It seems like a simple question. Dance around the issue all you want. Nobody seems to want to answer it. That is why i keep asking it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/238 "2020-09-06T22:34:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We must punish the students, right? Why on earth? Of course not. Their extreme overreaction makes we wonder what the heck they’ve been taught - that all white people are inescapably racist and out to get them? Pretty sad for them if so. I bet they do get punished though, if the internet finds out who they are. Because of the current vogue for mob ‘justice’ that you don’t believe in. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/239 "2020-09-06T22:47:12Z")
> [@Terwilliger](#): > > Did the guy say the N-word or not? I don’t see why you are so persistent that anything hinges on this alone. After all, it’s a widespread practise among actual racists to use words like “snigger” as code for the slur, with a veneer of deniability. And as we’ve discussed, if someone were _wearing a t-shirt_ with the characters nei-ge on it, it would without a doubt be a racist pun along the same lines - why would you wear a t-shirt saying “that”? But none of this is relevant to _this_ case, where his citation of the example of the very common filler word in Chinese was perfectly apt and natural in the context of his lecture. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830/240 "2020-09-06T22:59:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But you don’t seem to be claiming a possible intention here; you seem to be claiming, unequivocally, that he knew what he was doing mhendo, are you just fucking with me? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The professor likely knew the phonetic similarity between the Mandarin word and the American racist slur. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > He likely knew > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It seems likeliest to me that: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > if he was using the word, not to insult black students, but to seem momentarily like he was being transgressive as a way to make his lecture more memorable. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think that was likely one of multiple intentions. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If it was accidental, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-on-the-suspension-of-this-professor/919830.md?page=13)