# Thoughts/opinions on Waldorf schools, please! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 21, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126 "2011-09-21T23:58:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/1 "2011-09-21T23:58:18Z")
I wasn’t quite sure where to post this, there is no factual answer, so not GQ but nor am I necessarily looking for a debate. I just want to hear what kind of take Dopers have on Waldorf Schools. My niece is in the 8th grade and has attended a Waldorf school since Kindergarten. I have my opinions and ideas about the Waldorf system from what little I have been exposed to, and I have no problem airing them here. Before that though, I would really like to hear what others here have to say before I pipe up. Just to reassure myself that I am not biasing whatever replies I may receive here. Thank you, BB ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/2 "2011-09-22T00:29:18Z")
Once as a law clerk long ago, I worked on a custody case where the child was in a Waldorf school, and I reviewed the brochures – it seemed like an impressive, intensive curriculum, but I wondered what this “rhythmic dancing” thing was about. Turns out it’s this [eurythmy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurythmy) thingy invented by [Rudolf Steiner,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner) the father of [Waldorf Education,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education) and is supposed to be in some way connected (I’m not clear on how) with Steiner’s philosophical/mystical system, [Anthroposophy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy) But, hey, if we’re going to discount an educational tradition just because its underlying belief-system is whacky, well, heck, I won’t even bother. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/3 "2011-09-22T00:32:16Z")
In my town there are two main Waldorf schools and they are vastly different, which leads me to believe there is not only one kind of Waldorf school. The schools were started on a philosophy called Anthroposophy. This rejects modern medicine and psychiatry and promotes a belief in things like astrology and spiritual mysticism. But how much a school accepts this varies. One of the ones in my town has all the teachers wear long flowing skirts everyday and talks a lot about reincarnation as plants. The other takes a gentler than average method of education, but doesn’t get all into the woo. In general, the schools seem like a crock of hooey to me. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/4 "2011-09-22T00:37:12Z")
I have an anecdote about a friend of my mother’s. He had his children in a Waldorf school, and worked out a deal where he would teach a semester of physics in exchange for a break on tuition (they had a semester of chemistry followed by a semester of physics). Sometime during his first week, he made a casual reference to the periodic table, and no one knew what he was talking about. He probed a bit, and discovered that they had spent an entire semester of “chemistry” learning about the healing properties of different kinds of crystals. Even more disturbing, the administration was completely unaware that they were not learning mainstream chemistry (and were horrified when they found out, but still, it seems like the sort of thing that should come to the attention of a principal before the class is over). He ended up teaching both chemistry and physics for his semester, then withdrawing his kids from the school. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/5 "2011-09-22T00:41:50Z")
Not teaching your children to read until they’re older is a turn-off for me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/6 "2011-09-22T00:46:52Z")
Statler schools are slightly better, but neither is especially charming or forgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/7 "2011-09-22T01:58:05Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Not teaching your children to read until they’re older is a turn-off for me. AFAIK there aren’t really many problems with this so long as the children aren’t suddenly thrust into a different school environment before they catch up. However, I would have been one bored little boy if I hadn’t had my books. They do study other things earlier than usual (e.g. multiplication and division starting in 1st grade.) FWIW I went to one of these schools for two years of elementary school (_after_ I’d learned to read). While I can’t say for sure that it would have been the optimal place for me long term, it was certainly a delightful portion of my childhood. There was definitely a lot of woo going on (which annoyed me), but I was adequately educated. We moved at the end of my second year there and I was ahead of my peers at the new school, although I think that has more to do with moving to bumblefuck Illinois. I do value some of the experiences that I probably wouldn’t have gotten elsewhere (planting, harvesting, and processing wheat, then baking bread with the flour.) Not that those are at all necessary, but I really did like that stuff. The woo bugged me then and still bugs me now, although I think often the parents (NOT mine) were more into that stuff than the faculty/staff. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/8 "2011-09-22T02:19:22Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > AFAIK there aren’t really many problems with this so long as the children aren’t suddenly thrust into a different school environment before they catch up. However, I would have been one bored little boy if I hadn’t had my books. They do study other things earlier than usual (e.g. multiplication and division starting in 1st grade.) I’m not sure that is that unusual now. My kids go to an ordinary public school and got that starting in first grade. Not in a complex fashion, but the concepts. They started getting the concepts of algebra in 3rd grade. Spiral math… ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/9 "2011-09-22T03:48:05Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > AFAIK there aren’t really many problems with this so long as the children aren’t suddenly thrust into a different school environment before they catch up. However, I would have been one bored little boy if I hadn’t had my books. They do study other things earlier than usual (e.g. multiplication and division starting in 1st grade.) But it makes a huge difference if the child has a learning disability or some such issue. A _huge_ difference. I’m afraid too many kids could easily get lost in the woo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/10 "2011-09-22T11:35:28Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > But it makes a huge difference if the child has a learning disability or some such issue. A _huge_ difference. I’m afraid too many kids could easily get lost in the woo. 🙂 It _can_ make a huge difference, but again, AFAIK, there is no evidence showing a long-term deficit for most children. Given the number of children I’ve dealt with who have easily correctable reading and math problems that were never addressed, I have little faith in the public schools catching and correcting these problems. Anyone considering one of these schools can find plenty not to like about them, but the reading thing is seriously minor. Obviously if your child has learning problems, somewhere else might be better. Otherwise, if your child is ready to read and the school isn’t doing it (either because the child is too young for school or the school delays formal reading instruction,) then teach him! It’s not hard; anyone who doesn’t yet have children and doubts one’s ability to do this should think very hard about whether reproduction is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/11 "2011-09-22T18:04:28Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > In my town there are two main Waldorf schools and they are vastly different, which leads me to believe there is not only one kind of Waldorf school. > > The schools were started on a philosophy called Anthroposophy. This rejects modern medicine and psychiatry and promotes a belief in things like astrology and spiritual mysticism. > > But how much a school accepts this varies. One of the ones in my town has all the teachers wear long flowing skirts everyday and talks a lot about reincarnation as plants. The other takes a gentler than average method of education, but doesn’t get all into the woo. > > In general, the schools seem like a crock of hooey to me. > [@ENugent](#): > > I have an anecdote about a friend of my mother’s. He had his children in a Waldorf school, and worked out a deal where he would teach a semester of physics in exchange for a break on tuition (they had a semester of chemistry followed by a semester of physics). > > Sometime during his first week, he made a casual reference to the periodic table, and no one knew what he was talking about. He probed a bit, and discovered that they had spent an entire semester of “chemistry” learning about the healing properties of different kinds of crystals. Even more disturbing, the administration was completely unaware that they were not learning mainstream chemistry (and were horrified when they found out, but still, it seems like the sort of thing that should come to the attention of a principal before the class is over). > > He ended up teaching both chemistry and physics for his semester, then withdrawing his kids from the school. [shrug] Still sounds like a better education than you’d get from the Full Gospel Pentecostal Day School. Or from (most) homeschooling. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/12 "2011-09-22T18:59:15Z")
“Bananas, celery, walnuts, grapes!” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/13 "2011-09-22T21:17:41Z")
Thanks for the input. I have a niece who attends a Waldorf school and I am shocked at the lack of real core education. They sort of seem to pretend to have math and language, but my niece knows almost nothing for her age, it’s tragic as she is a smart kid and my sister and her husband are shelling out all this money for her ‘education’. When I was there for a visit earlier this year her teacher assigned my niece a biography of Turkey. A BIOGRAPHY. Of a COUNTRY. I was flabbergasted. I was sure my niece misspoke, but I looked at her papers and sure enough, he refers to what is a standard research paper on a country/culture as a biography. The teacher doesn’t seem to know the definition of ‘biography’. WTF? It still completely baffles me as I sit here and write it. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m pretty good at math, and tutoring her drove me nuts as her assignments just didn’t make any sense. Often vital data were left out, making the problem unworkable, unless one assumed things which weren’t given. Each and every time, it turned out that the teacher expected it to be assumed, because it was ‘obvious’. It was maddening. Again, TIP OF THE ICEBERG. Is this atypical for Waldorf, as far as any other dopers know? -BB ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/14 "2011-09-22T21:20:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] Still sounds like a better education than you’d get from the Full Gospel Pentecostal Day School. Or from (most) homeschooling. Perhaps, but those are vastly cheaper and don’t AFAIK make grandiose claims of superior instruction. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/15 "2011-09-22T21:51:22Z")
> [@Bamboo\_Boy](#): > > Thanks for the input. I have a niece who attends a Waldorf school and I am shocked at the lack of real core education. They sort of seem to pretend to have math and language, but my niece knows almost nothing for her age, it’s tragic as she is a smart kid and my sister and her husband are shelling out all this money for her ‘education’. > > When I was there for a visit earlier this year her teacher assigned my niece a biography of Turkey. A BIOGRAPHY. Of a COUNTRY. I was flabbergasted. I was sure my niece misspoke, but I looked at her papers and sure enough, he refers to what is a standard research paper on a country/culture as a biography. The teacher doesn’t seem to know the definition of ‘biography’. WTF? It still completely baffles me as I sit here and write it. > > This is just the tip of the iceberg. I’m pretty good at math, and tutoring her drove me nuts as her assignments just didn’t make any sense. Often vital data were left out, making the problem unworkable, unless one assumed things which weren’t given. Each and every time, it turned out that the teacher expected it to be assumed, because it was ‘obvious’. It was maddening. Again, TIP OF THE ICEBERG. > > Is this atypical for Waldorf, as far as any other dopers know? > > -BB Wow. None of my business and dealing with family is different than dealing with others etc etc but this really sounds like a good case for some kind of verbal intervention. If your description is accurate the kid is being irreparably harmed IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/16 "2011-09-23T14:22:04Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Wow. > > None of my business and dealing with family is different than dealing with others etc etc but this really sounds like a good case for some kind of verbal intervention. If your description is accurate the kid is being irreparably harmed IMO. I totally hear you, man. I love my niece so much and it makes me sick to my stomach when I think of how she isn’t vaccinated and how little she knows. Sometimes it’s shocking. She’s a bright kid. Definitely above average. She learned to read before she was “supposed to”, which the school actively discouraged, thinking it was harmful to read before some later point. But that was then- now, if she were mainstreamed tomorrow, she would be way behind, I think. No, I’m sure. However, despite all that, I know that talking to my sister would be all for naught. I DO express my dismay sometimes, it’s impossible not to- like how the teacher apparently didn’t really have a firm grasp on that super difficult concept- what a biography is. But as far as actually challenging her beliefs, she’s so far gone it would never be constructive and she certainly wouldn’t change her ways with how she’s raising her daughter. Did I mention the alternative doctors, homeopathic vaccines (oxymoron!), etc? Don’t. Get. Me. Started. It makes me want to scream, but I don’t see that there’s really anything I can do. But this thread was opened to find out more about the general take on Waldorf Schools. The school has it’s good points, and I DO think they seem to produce ‘nicer’ kids, they are really polite and loving children. I just don’t think that’s worth the trade-off of no real education. Also, they socially exist in this blissful environment, which makes them super sweet (AFAICT), but as I try to tell my sister, “it ain’t a Waldorf World.” I guess I’m saying I’m not sure this aspect is doing them favors in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/17 "2011-09-23T14:28:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Statler schools are slightly better, but neither is especially charming or forgiving. I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![iamnotbatman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@iamnotbatman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamnotbatman)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/18 "2011-09-26T03:23:12Z")
I went to a Waldorf school. I am now a physicist. My opinion: Rudolf Steiner, Anthroposophy, eurythmy: all crazy. The science curriculum was weak. The size of my class (25) had its upsides, but also a lot of downsides (we didn’t have a sports team, a prom, AP classes, etc). Some of the teachers were a bit woo-woo. That said, I’m glad I went. The teachers were generally pretty cool people, my fellow students were really wonderful (and many ended up quite successful), and I think getting to work on a farm, and a lot of the artsy stuff they had us do, was pretty neat, looking back (at the time I didn’t appreciate it). I’m not sure I would send my own kids there, but on the other hand I’m not sure I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/19 "2011-09-26T09:43:21Z")
> [@iamnotbatman](#): > > I went to a Waldorf school. I am now a physicist. My opinion: > > Rudolf Steiner, Anthroposophy, eurythmy: all crazy. The science curriculum was weak. The size of my class (25) had its upsides, but also a lot of downsides (we didn’t have a sports team, a prom, AP classes, etc). Some of the teachers were a bit woo-woo. That said, I’m glad I went. The teachers were generally pretty cool people, my fellow students were really wonderful (and many ended up quite successful), and I think getting to work on a farm, and a lot of the artsy stuff they had us do, was pretty neat, looking back (at the time I didn’t appreciate it). I’m not sure I would send my own kids there, but on the other hand I’m not sure I wouldn’t. Thank you very much for your input- It’s encouraging to hear of an ex-Waldorf student who went on to become a physicist! Did a lot of the science you learned at Waldorf turn out to be wrong and/or antiquated? Much of her science curriculum seems this way. Was there a bent for alternative medicine at your school? How many years ago was this? Were the concepts of Anthroposophy thrown around a lot? That seems like some kind of secret at my niece’s school. They get all weird when you bring that stuff up- kind of defensive and dismissive. If you don’t have the time or inclination to entertain my questions it’s ok, but I’m very curious! Thank you, BB ---
**Author:** ![SeaDragonTattoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeaDragonTattoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaDragonTattoo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126/20 "2011-09-26T10:01:34Z")
Thanks for this thread. Being a non-kid-centric person, I had no idea about the Waldorf schools, even with one across the street from where I’ve been living for over a year. The only observation I had made was the kids seemed above average for city school kids, and there are a lot of Mercedes and Range Rovers picking them up. The school shares a parking lot with a large Catholic cathedral, I wasn’t sure whether they were affiliated. The school seems very involved with the neighborhood, too. It’s very different on this block when school lets out, compared to city schools - much preferred! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thoughts-opinions-on-waldorf-schools-please/597126.md?page=2)