# Thousands of blacks fought for the CSA- according to Virginia history book **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 21, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851 "2010-10-21T01:59:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/41 "2010-10-22T02:20:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The ironic thing was that, on paper, Davis looked like he was eminently qualified to be a wartime President. He was a West Point graduate, had led a regiment in the Mexican War, and had been Secretary of War and Chairman of the Senate Committee on Military Affairs. He was chosen by the delegates at Montgomery because he appeared to be so highly qualified. It was only after he took office that it became apparent his actual skills did not live up to his resume. By all accounts he was a great Secretary of War- he modernized and enlarged the army, increased officer’s pay, and had the very outdated curriculum at West Point updated, all while President Pierce was slashing the federal debt in half. While he was a West Point grad however he had a very undistinguished academic career there (was almost kicked out due to drunkenness and disobeying curfew and there was an attempt to court marial him for participation in the [Eggnog Riots of 1826](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggnog_Riot)) and his military service was less than spectacular. In Mexico he served with bravery but nothing like brilliance and the high praise he received from Zachary Taylor probably had a lot to do with the fact he had once been Taylor’s son-in-law (his first wife, Sarah Knox Taylor, having died from an illness caught on their honeymoon a few years before). He had an ego larger than the Northwest Territories however and, like his onetime adversary Santa Anna believed himself on par with Napoleon, Alexander and Julius Caesar all combined. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/42 "2010-10-22T02:25:09Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > My mistake then. I assumed he converted because of the last rights and because of his career in England after the war (I didn’t realize Jews could be appointed to judgeships and Queen’s Counsel [Disraeli was of course but he was definitely a convert]). We were kicked out of England in the 13th century. Cromwell let us back in. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/43 "2010-10-22T02:43:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > We were kicked out of England in the 13th century. Cromwell let us back in. I knew there were Jews in England at the time, but I didn’t realize they were allowed to hold high office. It wasn’t that long before Benjamin that not even Catholics were likely to be appointed, let alone non-Christians. No idea why this comes to mind, but I listened to an audio book by Nicholas Courtney (British actor) who talked about working with William Hartnell, the elderly first Dr. Who. He described Hartnell as an eccentric old gentleman and very kind and charming, but he’d turn and in his most conspiratorial voice point to another actor or a crew member and say “He’s one of them you know.” “One of who?” “The Jews. He’s one of the Jews. Nice fellow, but he’s one of them.” And later adding “Disraeli was too you know. And I’ve heard Balfour himself was, but I think that’s rumor.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/44 "2010-10-22T03:03:48Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I knew there were Jews in England at the time, but I didn’t realize they were allowed to hold high office. It wasn’t that long before Benjamin that not even Catholics were likely to be appointed, let alone non-Christians. Good point. I had presumed we got let back in with full rights. 🙂 > [@Sampiro](#): > > No idea why this comes to mind, but I listened to an audio book by Nicholas Courtney (British actor) who talked about working with William Hartnell, the elderly first Dr. Who. He described Hartnell as an eccentric old gentleman and very kind and charming, but he’d turn and in his most conspiratorial voice point to another actor or a crew member and say “He’s one of them you know.” > > “One of who?” > “The Jews. He’s one of the Jews. Nice fellow, but he’s one of them.” > And later adding “Disraeli was too you know. And I’ve heard Balfour himself was, but I think that’s rumor.” Wow. Dr. Who an Antisemitie. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/45 "2010-10-22T15:46:18Z")
I remember reading a novel about Judah Benjamin but I don’t recall the book’s title. Concerning his wife, the gist of the story was that she was offered to Benjamin because the Upper Class White Society considered her ‘ruined’ by a relationship with a cousin of hers. **Sampiro** , do you have any information concerning this? In any case, Judah Benjamin seems to have been a fairly remarkable man. Or am I misinformed? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/46 "2010-10-22T17:14:49Z")
I’d like to once again thank the government of the Southern States for producing children unable to compete with mine. 😃 I think Virginia needs to get on the ball to catch up with Texas, though. I don’t know about history books, but my wife ghost wrote a big chunk of a high school biology book. It was outlined in detail by the academics who were the titled authors, and she got the job because she has an MS in biology. BTW [here](http://www.fivepondspress.com/) is a link to the publisher’s page. They seem to target Virginia, though they are based in Connecticut Notice they have some books on African American issues right under the Virginia set - I wonder how long those have been there. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/47 "2010-10-22T17:37:46Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I don’t know exactly how Virginia goes about it, but in many states, the state Board of Education will vet a number of texts, saying that they meet the standards the state has for the subject at that grade level. If you look at most state BOE (whatever they may be called) you’ll note that _some_ of the people there are politicians, who have no experience nor qualifications for teaching. (Many do, of course, but the point I’m trying to make is that from the get-go, not everyone evaluating texts has the background to determine accuracy, accessibility, nor suitability of a given text.) > > From there, the purchasing is left to the individual school districts. Much of this is true, although there are some important caveats. For example, in some states the people who choose the textbooks are not the same people who are on the State Board of Education. Texas, for example, has a separate Textbook Committee whose role is to choose the books. Also, the extent to which purchasing is left to individual school districts can vary markedly from state to state. Some states _require_ that districts choose from the state-approved list, while others have no such requirement. Some states have no state-level adoption at all, and leave all the decisions to local districts; other states make it very hard for individual districts to choose their own books. Even in cases where school districts are theoretically allowed to choose their own books, there are often heavy financial penalties for doing so. In Texas, for example, school districts can choose books that are not on the state-approved list, but if they go this route, they have to pay for the books themselves rather than having the textbooks heavily subsidized by the state. Take a guess which option most cash-strapped school districts go with. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/48 "2010-10-22T18:15:44Z")
Even a website dedicated to fighting ignorance has problems with details. The quote in the OP says “battalions” and the subsequent comments that refer to military units say brigade. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/49 "2010-10-22T22:11:45Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Even a website dedicated to fighting ignorance has problems with details. The quote in the OP says “battalions” and the subsequent comments that refer to military units say brigade. True, but acknowledged, which is the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/50 "2010-10-23T01:04:01Z")
A couple points: 1. Grant was not being ironic in attributing Union victory to Davis’s military genius – he was referencing the work he did as Secretary of War under Pierce, which eventually resulted in a Union Army that could win the Civil War – which is itself ironic, of course. 2. One of the extremes of the young Confederate widow bit was noted in William MAnchester’s history of the 1932-72 period – as a quite elderly lady the widow of Gen. James Longstreet, CSA, became a Rosie the Riveter in the early days of World War II, helping to build B-17s at the aircraft factory in Atlanta. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/51 "2010-10-23T01:24:14Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I knew there were Jews in England at the time, but I didn’t realize they were allowed to hold high office. It wasn’t that long before Benjamin that not even Catholics were likely to be appointed, let alone non-Christians. The first Jew to be a member of Parliament was Lionel de Rothschild, in 1858, after the passage of the Jewish Relief Bill allowed him to sit in the House of Commons. The first Jew in the House of Lords was his son, Nathan, Baron Rothschild, in 1885. The first Jewish Minister of the Crown was Sir George Jessel, in 1871, after the passage of the Promissory Oaths Act of 1871, which allowed Jews to hold pretty much any public office they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/52 "2010-10-23T01:32:00Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > One of the extremes of the young Confederate widow bit was noted in William MAnchester’s history of the 1932-72 period – as a quite elderly lady the widow of Gen. James Longstreet, CSA, became a Rosie the Riveter in the early days of World War II, helping to build B-17s at the aircraft factory in Atlanta. I gotta ask for a cite. 🙂 We had Civil War Widows in the 60’s here. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/53 "2010-10-23T03:38:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I gotta ask for a cite. 🙂 We had Civil War Widows in the 60’s here. [Here ya go.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Dortch_Longstreet) See the chapter on the Home Front in Manchester’s _The Glory and the Dream_. (And I didn’t say she was the oldest surviving Confederate widow, whether or not she told all, just that she was one of the extremes. Certainly the idea of the widow of a Confederate general building airplanes during World War II has got to be good for something! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/54 "2010-10-23T05:13:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > (And I didn’t say she was the oldest surviving Confederate widow, whether or not she told all, just that she was one of the extremes. Certainly the idea of the widow of a Confederate general building airplanes during World War II has got to be good for something! Here’s another one: Aaron Burr rose to fame during the Revolutionary War. His widow Eliza lived to see the end of the Civil War. And the most amazing one I’ve ever heard. John Tyler, the tenth President of the United States who was born when George Washington was President, has a grandson, Harrison Ruffin Tyler, who is apparently still alive. (The most recent confirmation about him I could find is from 2008.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/55 "2010-10-23T05:50:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Here’s another one: Aaron Burr rose to fame during the Revolutionary War. His widow Eliza lived to see the end of the Civil War. Mrs. Hamilton came closer than you might think: she died in 1854 at age 97. (Real minor nitpick: Eliza and Burr were divorced shortly before he died- they separated after a few weeks of marriage when she learned how much in debt he was.) There were also still Revolutionary veterans receiving pensions at the end of the Civil War. The second Mrs. Longstreet seems to have married the general for love. It drove his kids nuts (most were older than she was). She wound up in the state lunatic asylum in Milledgeville (where I used to live- the city, not the asylum) in her last years due to dementia. She was the last surviving widow of a major player in the war. Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and many other important figures of the war both north and south were the children of Revolutionary War veterans. > [@Polycarp](#): > > A couple points: > > 1. Grant was not being ironic in attributing Union victory to Davis’s military genius – he was referencing the work he did as Secretary of War under Pierce, which eventually resulted in a Union Army that could win the Civil War – which is itself ironic, of course. He was highly complimentary of Davis as Sec/War, but he was being facetious in reference to Davis’s military genius. The caps are [Grant’s](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4367/4367-h/p4.htm), not mine- he’s speaking of Davis leaving Bragg in charge of Tennessee and the bungled mess that was the Chattanooga campaign: > [@](#): > > It may be that Longstreet was not sent to Knoxville for the reason stated, but because Mr. Davis had an exalted opinion of his own military genius, and thought he saw a chance of “killing two birds with one stone.” On several occasions during the war he came to the relief of the Union army by means of his SUPERIOR MILITARY GENIUS. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/56 "2010-10-23T06:04:33Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Real minor nitpick: Eliza and Burr were divorced shortly before he died Very shortly. The divorce was officially granted on the day Burr died. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/57 "2010-10-23T12:44:09Z")
Getting further off topic, but I’m fine with that: another odd coincidence about Mrs. Burr and the Hamiltons is that their houses are two of the very few 18th century buildings left in Manhattan and I believe the only two residences of famous people from that era. There’s an odd ghost story begging to be written there, though I’ll give my share to somebody who actually knows something about Manhattan. [The Jumel Mansion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris-Jumel_Mansion) is in Washington Heights and Hamilton’s country home, [The Grange](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_Grange_National_Memorial), is in Harlem. Jumel’s home is in its original location but The Grange has been moved twice; here’s a picture of something you don’t see everyday: an 18th century Constitution framer’s home [going down the stree](http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/files/storyphotos/HAGR-Moving.jpg?0). Like Burr did 32 years later Hamilton died deeply in debt, so much so that several of his friends and admirers and in-law all contributed a fund to pay off the mortgages on that house and deed it to his children just to ensure that his widow had some place to live as she was in danger of foreclosure. She did lose their much grander (and long gone) townhouse to foreclosure. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/58 "2010-10-24T15:01:08Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > [Here ya go.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Dortch_Longstreet) See the chapter on the Home Front in Manchester’s _The Glory and the Dream_. > > (And I didn’t say she was the oldest surviving Confederate widow, whether or not she told all, just that she was one of the extremes. Certainly the idea of the widow of a Confederate general building airplanes during World War II has got to be good for something! Thanks, Polycarp! ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/59 "2010-11-18T22:44:28Z")
Hope it’s not too late but back to the OP, [here is an interesting site](http://www.retouchinghistory.org/) about the falsifying of Civil War photographs. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851/60 "2010-11-18T23:14:32Z")
You mean the giant thunderbird photo wasn’t real after all? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thousands-of-blacks-fought-for-the-csa-according-to-virginia-history-book/557851.md?page=4)