# {Thread about Israel & Palestine launched from} Majority Leader Schumer Delivers Major Address On Antisemitism On The Senate Floor

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929>\
**Category:** Politics & Elections\
**Tags:** israel-hamas-war\
**Created:** [December 1, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929 "2023-12-01T00:33:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 5

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**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/81 "2023-12-02T07:45:20Z")

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> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> > [@InfraBlue](#):
> >
> > You _say_ whatever you have to say about history and go on to say “some people say” is a weak argument. You just undermined whatever you have to say. Excellent.
> 
> No, I know and cite sources of the actual history of the conflict, I don’t just _say_ whatever I have to say about history. That you fail to either know the history of the region or actually read anything I cite is your problem, not mine. That you imagine that this undermines whatever I have to say demonstrates that you don’t know how debating, or for that matter conversations work.

You’re merely quoting some history to back your opinion. I’ve quoted others that quote history to back their opinion. Same difference.

> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> Hate to break it to you for what, the third time?

You said you were leaving. So long.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/82 "2023-12-02T07:46:16Z")

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> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> when it’s not what either party wants.

It’s what both parties need.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/83 "2023-12-02T07:53:25Z")

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> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> You’re merely quoting some history to back your opinion. I’ve quoted others that quote history to back their opinion. Same difference.

You haven’t quoted anything remotely related to actual history. That’s the difference.

> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> > [@Dissonance](#):
> >
> > when it’s not what either party wants.
> 
> It’s what both parties need.

Oh, well if it’s what both parties need then that solves everything. It really does just magic away any issues, hatreds, hostilities or history. I’m amazed nobody came up with this detailed solution to the Middle East problem before you. Bravo, sir, bravo.

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**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/84 "2023-12-02T07:55:06Z")

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What _I_ need is to know what exactly you mean by the term “necessarily oppressive.” If you believe you’ve adequately defined the term upthread, I must confess that I failed to comprehend it. Please explain it to me like I’m, say, thirteen.

N.B. I would appreciate it if no one undertakes to answer this before @InfraBlue has made an attempt.

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**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/85 "2023-12-02T14:11:37Z")

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> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> The creation of the Zionist state exponentially exacerbated the pogroms inflicted against Jews and has served to perpetuate them.

That’s an interesting take. It is historically false.

> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> The People of Palestine should become citizens of one democratic, egalitarian, and pluralistic state in all of Palestine, whatever it would be called.

The one really pluralistic state in the middle east was Lebanon. It is not a shining beacon that anyone is likely to aspire to.

> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> Oh, and for the record I’m disgusted by the level of disregard for civilian life that’s been demonstrated by the Israeli government over the past month.

Yeah, me, too. That doesn’t make a one state solution a good idea.

> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> Here are some things some people say.
> 
> [Deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust spurs a crisis of confidence in the idea of Israel – and its possible renewal](https://theconversation.com/deadliest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust-spurs-a-crisis-of-confidence-in-the-idea-of-israel-and-its-possible-renewal-215507)

Ah, you have misunderstood. “The deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust” may well be true. But it was much less deadly than any number of pograms that were routine occurrences before the founding of the state of Israel. It’s the “before Israel” situation that Israelis are trying to avoid.

And since the founding of Israel, Jews have fled from a number of places that used to have routine pograms and moved to Israel. That’s one of the reasons you haven’t seen any other pograms in your lifetime.

I have some issues with the state of Israel. But we can’t even have a conversation if you don’t understand the basic reason Zionism happened.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/86 "2023-12-02T16:34:59Z")

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> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> Hate to break it to you for what, the third time? But these words don’t possess magic powers to make things so.

Really. One might just as well offer the solution of installing a government that will satisfy everyone’s concerns. Yeah, that would be great.

These types of suggestions remind me of the Monty Python chat show skit where they taught us how to play the flute: technically accurate and completely unhelpful.

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**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/87 "2023-12-02T16:47:00Z")

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> [@Dissonance](#):
>
> Hate to break it to you for what, the third time? But these words don’t possess magic powers to make things so. Adding the words “is substantial, and is all that is needed to resolve the conflict in Palestine” isn’t providing a solution, explaining how this will make ethnic hatred miracle themselves out of existence, doing jack shit to address the legitimate security concerns of both parties, or explain how this won’t instantly collapse back into the situation as it now stands. That’s because repeating the mantra “democratic, egalitarian, and pluralistic state” doesn’t mean anything when you have provided no actual means of getting there, much less sustaining such a thing when it’s not what either party wants.

If it was so easy to just establish a “democratic, egalitarian, and pluralistic state” then why on Earth would we stop with Israel and Palestine? Let’s just abolish all national governments and create one world-wide “democratic, egalitarian, and pluralistic” government for everyone on the planet.

In fact, if we could snap our fingers and make that situation manifest, it would probably be a good thing. But that’s not how human nature works. If we tried it we’d end up with enormous suffering and ethnic cleansing on a never before seen scale.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t a worthy end goal. A couple hundred years from now if we are still governing through nation-states I’d be quite disappointed in us as a species.

But you have to put in the work to get there. The best model I can think of that pushes us in the right direction is the EU model. Expanding the EU or creating similar groups in other places seems like a reasonable first step.

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**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/88 "2023-12-02T16:52:57Z")

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> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> > [@Babale](#):
> >
> > History proves otherwise. Maybe you find the status quo faced by Jews from from the death of Hyracnus II until 1948 acceptable; I don’t.
> 
> The status quo faced by Jews from the death of Hyracnus II until 1948 doesn’t justify the Zionists’ oppression of the Palestinian people.

It justifies having a separate Israel, where Jews can be relatively safe from the people that want to exterminate them all TODAY, RIGHT NOW. It shows that your fairy tale that everyone would be happy in a single state and the Jews and Palestinians could somehow (TOMORROW) live in harmony is laughably wrong.

The evidence shows clearly that your fantasy country would quickly lead to the extermination of the Jewish population there. And somewhat coincidentally, this is just what Hamas wants. Your arguments are transparent Hamas talking points.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/89 "2023-12-02T16:54:40Z")

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> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> The evidence shows clearly that your fantasy country would quickly lead to the extermination of the Jewish population there

But what if the global community takes decisive action to stop the attrocities? Here’s what that would look like:

[![](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd682f07b-67c3-45c8-b620-1f048ad955d8_311x311.jpeg) ](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fd682f07b-67c3-45c8-b620-1f048ad955d8_311x311.jpeg)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/90 "2023-12-02T16:54:59Z")

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> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> You said you were leaving. So long.

**Moderating**  
Keep up this type of posting and a suspension will be next. That is pretty close to trolling, it is the second time at least you directed remarks like that to @Dissonance in this thread.

Watch your posting. Thin Ice and all that jazz.

* * *

* * *

I also prefixed the thread title to make it a lot less bait and switch-like.  
Again, you are beginning to look like a troll to me with these actions.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/91 "2023-12-02T17:32:31Z")

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> [@Babale](#):
>
> . The best model I can think of that pushes us in the right direction is the EU model. Expanding the EU or creating similar groups in other places seems like a reasonable first step.

Except that they have already lost a founding member for mumble mumble reasons.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/92 "2023-12-02T17:40:47Z")

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> [@FinsToTheLeft](#):
>
> Except that they have already lost a founding member for mumble mumble reasons

Which just goes to show how difficult this process is going to be.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/93 "2023-12-02T21:02:55Z")

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> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> > [@InfraBlue](#):
> >
> > The creation of the Zionist state exponentially exacerbated the pogroms inflicted against Jews and has served to perpetuate them.
> 
> That’s an interesting take. It is historically false.

How do you figure?

> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> > [@InfraBlue](#):
> >
> > The People of Palestine should become citizens of one democratic, egalitarian, and pluralistic state in all of Palestine, whatever it would be called.
> 
> The one really pluralistic state in the middle east was Lebanon. It is not a shining beacon that anyone is likely to aspire to.

Let’s not aspire to Lebanon, then.

> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> > [@InfraBlue](#):
> >
> > Here are some things some people say.
> > 
> > [Deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust spurs a crisis of confidence in the idea of Israel – and its possible renewal](https://theconversation.com/deadliest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust-spurs-a-crisis-of-confidence-in-the-idea-of-israel-and-its-possible-renewal-215507)
> 
> Ah, you have misunderstood. “The deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust” may well be true. But it was much less deadly than any number of pograms that were routine occurrences before the founding of the state of Israel. It’s the “before Israel” situation that Israelis are trying to avoid.
> 
> And since the founding of Israel, Jews have fled from a number of places that used to have routine pograms and moved to Israel. That’s one of the reasons you haven’t seen any other pograms in your lifetime.
> 
> I have some issues with the state of Israel. But we can’t even have a conversation if you don’t understand the basic reason Zionism happened.

Yeah, I’m familiar with the Zionists’ rationalizations for the existence of the state of Israel.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/94 "2023-12-02T21:03:52Z")

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Move this thread to the pit, then.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/95 "2023-12-02T21:09:12Z")

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I think that’s a great idea.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/96 "2023-12-02T21:09:21Z")

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> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> Ah, you have misunderstood. “The deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust” may well be true. But it was much less deadly than any number of pograms that were routine occurrences before the founding of the state of Israel. It’s the “before Israel” situation that Israelis are trying to avoid.
> 
> And since the founding of Israel, Jews have fled from a number of places that used to have routine pograms and moved to Israel. That’s one of the reasons you haven’t seen any other pograms in your lifetime

The pograms that Jews have suffered do not justify Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/97 "2023-12-02T21:27:30Z")

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Okay, but while

> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> The pograms that Jews have suffered do not justify Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people.

is a legitimate argument.

> [@InfraBlue](#):
>
> The creation of the Zionist state exponentially exacerbated the pogroms inflicted against Jews and has served to perpetuate them. An oppressive state as a response to oppression is not the answer.

Is just false. Rudiculously so. I’m not going to bother debating the first with someone who asserts the second. Because they obviously either don’t give a shit about whether Jews are routinely murdered, or at best, get their information from sources that has that view.

Any possibility solution to the Palestinian issue needs to take into account the interests of both Palestinians and Israelis. And Israelis tend to care a lot about having a place where Jews are safe from pogroms.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/98 "2023-12-02T21:28:09Z")

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Thirded.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/99 "2023-12-02T21:38:31Z")

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Most certainly.

“Necessary” i.e. essential, indispensable, or requisite. In regard to Israel, essential, indispensable, or requisite for its existence. “Oppressive,” i.e. tyrannical, unjustly harsh. “Oppress,” i.e. to keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority. In regard to an oppressor, to subjugate by cruelty, force, etc. In regard to Israel, its treatment of the Palestinian people is tyrannical, with unjust use of force and authority in their subjugation of the Palestinian people as it denies the Palestinians’ rights in Palestine.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-israel-palestine-launched-from-majority-leader-schumer-delivers-major-address-on-antisemitism-on-the-senate-floor/993929/100 "2023-12-02T21:44:04Z")

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So your claim is that it is necessary for Palestinians to be oppressed for the State of Israel to exist?

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