# Thread about ultra-Orthodox Jews given an inaccurate title change **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 15, 2020, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009 "2020-10-15T13:11:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/21 "2020-10-15T17:31:51Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Could someone clarify what the original thread title read as, though? I can’t remember exactly, but since nobody with more accurate knowledge has answered yet, it was something like - “What good have ultra-Orthodox Jews ever done the world?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/22 "2020-10-15T17:33:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If you want to start threats on the edge of forbidden bigotry Long ago I proposed a moderation philosophy in the Pit, that we evaluate overall whether posters are improving the boards. If mods conclude that someone is wanting to start threads on the edge of forbidden bigotry, doesn’t that indicate whether their presence is making the board better? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/23 "2020-10-15T17:40:18Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I wonder if @SlackerInc still thinks they are such bad people? I don’t see eye to eye with @SlackerInc on a lot of things, but implying that he’s pro-Trump or something is way off base. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/24 "2020-10-15T17:49:30Z")
Yep, it was anti-semitic and thus racist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/25 "2020-10-15T17:54:51Z")
But that is not true either, and just as bigoted. Yes, some do. Maybe even most. Some Christians do also. But you cant even tar even all evangelical Christians with “…do bad things and are bad” even tho I might concede most do. Some Muslims do also. In other nations other religions have members who cause problems. I dont give a rats ass if it _is_ the Pit, bigoted racist screeds should not be allowed. Period. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/26 "2020-10-15T17:58:31Z")
On the _edge_ of forbidden bigotry? This is so far over the edge it is a small coyote shaped hole in the bottom of the Grand Canyon. It is purely, 100% bigotry. The Pit should not be a haven for bigots. It is there for rants and (sadly) calling other posters names. We shouldn’t allow open racism here on the SDMB. Period. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/27 "2020-10-15T18:00:24Z")
Can we agree to outlaw blatant misogyny too? While we’re at it. Save us having to drag all the tools and supplies out later. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/28 "2020-10-15T18:10:31Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I wonder if @SlackerInc still thinks they are such bad people? 😀 Wait, what? Do you think I like Trump or something?!? 🤮 > [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t see eye to eye with @SlackerInc on a lot of things, but implying that he’s pro-Trump or something is way off base. Thank you. That was a real WTF. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont give a rats ass if it _is_ the Pit, bigoted racist screeds should not be allowed. What the actual fuck does race have to do with it? I mentioned the recent Hulu miniseries (again, based on an actual memoir) _Orthodox_ upthread. I had nothing but affection and an outpouring of sympathy for the main character, who escaped that oppressive ultra-Orthodox NYC community, as well as for her mother, who had done the same (and thereby became completely shunned) years earlier. I had nothing but rage for those trying to keep her essentially in a form of de facto slavery. Did she become a different race than them when she escaped? Do you know what “race” means? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/29 "2020-10-15T18:19:12Z")
Blatant? Sure. But stuff like “who is sexier, Ginger or Mary-Ann” isnt blatant. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/30 "2020-10-15T18:23:47Z")
You got me there. In the purest definition of the term, your screed was “bigoted” not “racist”. Yep you even pulled out the old 'some of my best friends are jewish". Congratulations! ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/31 "2020-10-15T18:26:39Z")
I’m so sick of that term “anti-semitic”, which seems to dismiss the apartheid against the Palestinians… I’d also like to point out the overwhelming majority of Semites are Arab. I saw someone else (from NYC) talk about their intransigence and spreading COVID (which is very highly concentrated there) and instead of talking about how fast viruses are transmitted, you see bullshit instead. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/32 "2020-10-15T18:29:25Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > I’m so sick of that term “anti-semitic”, which seems to dismiss the apartheid against the Palestinians… I’d also like to point out the overwhelming majority of Semites are Arab. Good grief. “Anti-semitic” doesn’t dismiss apartheid against the Palestinians, what a ridiculous thing to say. And your pedantic parsing of terms is like anti-semitism 101, just like how Richard Spencer denies he’s a racist because of an ultra-pedantic parsing of the term. Give us a miss with that nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/33 "2020-10-15T18:34:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You got me there. In the purest definition of the term, your screed was “bigoted” not “racist”. If it’s bigoted to disavow people who subscribe to a benighted _ideology_, an ideology they are free to abandon, then I’m bigoted. But as an atheist, I take strong exception to defining bigotry that way. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/34 "2020-10-15T18:44:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > …But you cant even tar even all evangelical Christians with… But at some level of granularity, and if there are certain prominent aspects of ideology within a group, the group that an individual identifies with does become largely a choice, and it’s reasonable that any individual who chooses to identify as part of that group should be associated with those beliefs, without constant caveats. Indeed that _should_ happen, otherwise “it’s part of my cultural identity” can be misused to try to put bad ideas above scrutiny. There’s some recent thread along the lines of “is it bigotry if it’s a sincerely held religious belief”. Yes it is. I assume nobody would have a problem with criticizing the Westboro Baptist Church as a group, even if there are _some_ (perhaps younger) members for whom it’s tied up with their entire family for whom it might not be a trivial matter to “choose” something else. The important thing is always to be crystal clear that it’s specific _ideas_ and _beliefs_ that you’re criticizing, because cultural identity is so often difficult to untangle from purely voluntary ideology. And even if certain bad ideas _are_ currently universal among some group, the best way forward may not be for individuals to choose to leave and cease to identify as members of the group, but rather to initiate reform from within. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/35 "2020-10-15T18:46:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > There are also protests against restrictions on in-person gatherings, and those have some basis in religion. Jews have a religious requirement to pray in groups of at least 10, and for the orthodox, that means 10 adult men. That’s a gathering, and may be restricted under some covid lockdowns. I’m not convinced that their chief objection isn’t based on the very same principles as any cult. To keep your sheep cult members from wondering off, you need to continue to re-enforce dependence and structure. Lose control and you loose the flock. So I very much doubt it’s an objection to not being able to form a minyan for prayer. I think it’s about religious zealotry and fear of intrusion on established control by the outside world; a world they work very hard to keep at bay. It would be very hard to convince me that these people are not every bit the brain washed cult members like WBC and Scientologists, among others. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/36 "2020-10-15T18:47:23Z")
> [@MortSahlFan](#): > > I’m so sick of that term “anti-semitic”, which seems to dismiss the apartheid against the Palestinians… I’d also like to point out the overwhelming majority of Semites are Arab. It was the racists who irrevocably tied the word “semitic” to Jewish people. It’s not some kind of secret conspiracy to dismiss anything. But what kind of world would we live in if we didn’t have insinuations that the Jews are capable of encoding their global control into the very language we use? ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/37 "2020-10-15T18:47:52Z")
Good grief? I’m Jewish. But I’m no trendy justice whorior. And I don’t like people like you who don’t know simple language. It’s all in a dictionary, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/38 "2020-10-15T18:57:35Z")
_That_’s what everybody is so riled up over? I mean, what’s the point of having a Pit if you can’t make broad generalizations about groups of people and just write them all off as idiots? This just seems like a normal conversation, at least in the real world. “What good have X ever done for the world?” Insert Republicans, Democrats, Christians, Jews, Muslims, athiests, white people, Black people, Americans, Europeans, men, women, hipsters, millennials, literally every single group imaginable. Perhaps there is some other segment of society where this kind of rant against X is shocking to the conscience, but I’m shocked that anybody finds it shocking. Now, this kind of statement wouldn’t be acceptable in a place where people are polite and respectful. You wouldn’t hear it coming out of a judge’s mouth for example. But is that the standard you want to use in the Pit? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/39 "2020-10-15T18:58:04Z")
It gives me no great pleasure to do so, but I feel honorbound to sort of sigh and defend **LHOD** on this narrow point. It goes beyond pedantry to sophistry to say that antisemitism should properly be understood as antipathy to all Semitic people, including Arabs. It’s clearly understood in modern terms to be anti-_Jewish_ prejudice. But still a prejudice based on a racial or ethnic aspect of Jewishness, not on a consciously chosen religious ideology. And I **vehemently** reject the accusation that I am expressing antipathy for anyone based on race, ethnicity, or any other inborn/immutable characteristic. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009/40 "2020-10-15T19:04:33Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But is that the standard you want to use in the Pit? God forbid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-about-ultra-orthodox-jews-given-an-inaccurate-title-change/923009.md?page=3)