# Thread on viability of Electric Cars **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 24, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612 "2021-03-24T18:28:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/141 "2021-07-23T14:45:05Z")
This may not be the right thread for it, but there was some good discussion happening here about batteries/electric grid/clean energy storage. This (bare bones) [article](https://www.wbur.org/news/2021/07/22/energy-storage-batteries-climate-change-rust-salt) came out today from my local NPR station about new cheap battery technology. From the article: > After four years of stealth R&D, Somerville-based [Form Energy](https://formenergy.com/) has emerged with what could be a breakthrough energy storage technology, based on rust. > > Form Energy president and COO Ted Wiley says the company has produced hundreds of working prototypes of an iron-air-exchange battery that can store large amounts of energy for several days. > > “We’ve completed the science,” says Wiley, “what’s left to do is scale up from lab-scale protoypes to grid-scale power plants. “ > > In full production, “the modules will produce electricity for one-tenth the cost of any technology available today for grid storage," Wiley says. > > If the plan comes to fruition, Form Energy’s batteries could realize what’s called "the renewable energy Holy Grail” — relatively inexpensive, reliable grid-scale energy storage. Because solar and wind do not generate power when the sun is down or the wind isn’t blowing, storing their power for down times is the key to clean energy reliability. Have any of you knowledgeable people heard of “iron-air-exchange” batteries before? The article makes it sound pretty promising, but it also reads like a press release, so my skepticism is flaring. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/142 "2021-07-23T16:00:57Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Have any of you knowledgeable people heard of “iron-air-exchange” batteries before? The article makes it sound pretty promising, but it also reads like a press release, so my skepticism is flaring. No, but there have been several ‘promising’ technologies that promised similar reduction in cost and improvement in performance IF they could be scaled up. And that’s a major qualifier. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/143 "2021-07-23T16:50:05Z")
[Here’s a 2017 article from phys.org](https://phys.org/news/2017-11-renaissance-iron-air-battery.html) that discusses the technology, for anyone interested. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/144 "2021-07-23T19:52:01Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Have any of you knowledgeable people heard of “iron-air-exchange” batteries before? The article makes it sound pretty promising, but it also reads like a press release, so my skepticism is flaring. I know this company and technology from about two years back. It’s solid technogy, but it won’t do much for EVs other than as a general grid improvement. It’s for longer-duration grid storage, where lithium ion isn’t competitive. I’m happy to discuss further, but this may not be the place for it. For EVs, power density and energy density are important. For grid storage, it’s mostly about cost. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/145 "2021-07-23T20:23:10Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s solid technogy, but it won’t do much for EVs other than as a general grid improvement. Yes, but there was a whole discussion upthread about EV usage effects on the general grid and the storage problems of wind/solar. So I thought it might fit here. I’d like to hear your thoughts, if you’re willing. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2021, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/146 "2021-07-24T03:08:43Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Yes, but there was a whole discussion upthread about EV usage effects on the general grid and the storage problems of wind/solar. So I thought it might fit here. I’d like to hear your thoughts, if you’re willing. Without any demand management, vehicle charging can cause spikes in demand, regardless of generation source. _With_ demand management, they can actual help smooth out renewables. Lithium ion grid storage is (currently) good for ~4h. Form Energy’s iron air batteries take days to charge or discharge. So actually not all that great for dealing with everyone coming home and plugging in all at once. But good for a cold snap or heat wave that strain generating capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2021, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/147 "2021-07-24T05:12:46Z")
On a related note, Tesla started a beta program for their “virtual power plant” in California: > **[Join the Tesla Virtual Power Plant | Tesla Support](https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/california-virtual-power-plant)** > > Help create the largest distributed battery system in the world and avoid dependence on the least efficient fossil fuel power plants by opting-in to the Tesla Virtual Power Plant. This is for their Powerwall batteries, not vehicles, but it’s plausible that vehicles will be supported eventually (though probably only future models). Right now, customers aren’t paid for participating, so it’s a sort of societal good thing, but it seems likely that there will be some incentive program eventually. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/148 "2021-07-24T13:34:00Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > So actually not all that great for dealing with everyone coming home and plugging in all at once. But good for a cold snap or heat wave that strain generating capacity. Thanks for responding. Do you imagine this technology is good in general for storage of wind and solar generated power? It _sounds_ good to me, but I can’t determine what is realistic and what is hype. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612/149 "2021-07-24T22:05:41Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Thanks for responding. Do you imagine this technology is good in general for storage of wind and solar generated power? It _sounds_ good to me, but I can’t determine what is realistic and what is hype. Grid storage is enabling for both high penetration of intermittent generation and to allow baseload resources to load-follow. The key question about this particular technology is whether they can make money off of it, which is a function not just capital cost (which is low), but also efficiency, cycle life, operating costs. The electrochemistry works, but I can’t tell you if the economics do yet. But it’s not going to do much to help charge your car unless you’re sticking a battery in your back yard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thread-on-viability-of-electric-cars/938612.md?page=7)