# Through the looking glass: Since when does the country you INVADED count as an ally? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896 "2004-10-06T18:58:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/1 "2004-10-06T18:58:47Z")
I brought this up in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?) thread, but it kind of got glossed over. In the VP debates, Edwards pointed out that 90% of the “coalition” causalties and 90% of the cost in Iraq has been borne by the United States. Cheney’s response was to castigate Edwards for not counting the IRAQIS against that 90%. O.K., let’s get some perspective here: The Bush administration has been criticized for not building a TRUE coalition, but rather rushing to war with a coalition in name only, that in reality includes very little support from any of our allies. Now am I the only one who sees that it’s just a TAD disingenuous to count the COUNTRY WE INVADED as part of this coalition, after the fact? I mean, c’mon - that’s utter nonsense. In the other thread, I wondered aloud whether anyone is actually buying that line of b.s., only to get this post later in the thread: > [@Debaser](#): > > I loved the line where Edwards wouldn’t acknowledge our Iraqi allies. As soon as he said it, I knew Cheney had him. He walked right into it. It proved a point that Cheney was making just minutes before. Sorry to pick on you, Debaser, but you fell for Cheney’s bullshit hook, line, and sinker. I mean seriously folks, this is truly bizarre. I keep expecting Rod Serling to show up and do a voice-over. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/2 "2004-10-06T19:00:22Z")
fixed link: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=279418](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=279418) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/3 "2004-10-06T19:05:56Z")
It’s an interesting argument. I don’t think we can count them as allies, since right now they’re essentially US employees. Sure, technically they’re under the control of the Iraqi Interim Government, but considering that we handpicked that interim government, and that we’re financing it, they’re for all intents and purposes working for the US. An ally, in humanese, is an equal partner, not an underling. If we’re going to include those causalties in our casualty figure, they should count as US casualties. But it doesn’t really make sense to count them, anyway: they’re victims of war, not participants in war. Until they’re representing a sovereign nation, until they’re armed and trained, they’re victims. Last point: Cheney’s point was basically, “You’re underestimating by half the number of people that have died in this war! See, we’re doing a much better job than you give us credit for!” Not a real compelling argument, even if you accept his rationale for including Iraqi casualties. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/4 "2004-10-06T19:28:24Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It’s an interesting argument. I don’t think we can count them as allies, since right now they’re essentially US employees. Sure, technically they’re under the control of the Iraqi Interim Government, but considering that we handpicked that interim government, and that we’re financing it, they’re for all intents and purposes working for the US. Well even if, for the sake of argument, we say they’re under our control NOW, it’s still a disingenous argument. Bush claims to have built a “coalition of the willing” to invade Iraq. To examine the veracity of his claim, it’s fair to consider how much the other members of the “coalition of the willing” are contributing. It makes no sense to count Iraq in there. That would be like China claiming that Tibet helped invade itself. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/5 "2004-10-06T19:33:52Z")
I find this argument as laughable as you do. Cheney actually used it rather well and left Edwards somewhat at a loss for words- partly just because it was such a ridiculous counter and yet phrased with a veneer of believability- but **Debaser** ’s post in the other thread is evidence either of someone who has absolutely no cognitive ability (my eleven-year old step-nephew noted the absurdity of counting Iraqis as allies) or was really drunk while watching the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/6 "2004-10-06T19:38:21Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Cheney’s response was to castigate Edwards for not counting the IRAQIS against that 90%. That was an odd response. I’d like to know where Cheney got his figures. As far as I know, we stopped counting Iraqi casualties last winter, and haven’t gotten back into the game. Are we keeping count again? Is it a secret count, or is there someplace a person can go to verify Cheney’s numbers? If it’s a secret count, how could Cheney expect Edwards to know it? That’s dishonest debating. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/7 "2004-10-06T19:40:49Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Now am I the only one who sees that it’s just a TAD disingenuous to count the COUNTRY WE INVADED as part of this coalition, after the fact? Gee, now that they are part of the coalition, can they join the eight other countries that have withdrawn their troops from combat? Oops, there goes Poland, make that nine countries that are fed up with being lied to. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/8 "2004-10-06T19:55:07Z")
I’ve wondered the same thing for the last 2 debates, as well. Honestly though, once you’ve deposed a ruler, installed a hand picked government that won’t blast you or even speak ill of your administration and thrown money at all of the “willing” participants in said government and the “trainees” of their police force, it becomes ever more difficult for you to call them Allies and get called out for it. Who are they going to go public to? They’re fed, paid, trained and given powers that very few Iraqis have had in any recent times. Hell, i wouldn’t speak out against it either, if the shoe was on the other foot. Sam ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/9 "2004-10-06T20:03:49Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I find this argument as laughable as you do. Cheney actually used it rather well and left Edwards somewhat at a loss for words- partly just because it was such a ridiculous counter and yet phrased with a veneer of believability. Scary but true. I experience that a lot here on SDMB. When someone says something utterly outrageous, I sometimes just don’t know how to respond. It’s like the “Chewbacca defense” on South Park. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/10 "2004-10-06T20:09:23Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > They’re fed, paid, trained and given powers that very few Iraqis have had in any recent times. Hell, i wouldn’t speak out against it either, if the shoe was on the other foot. Yeah, and that’s what’s so maddening about it. Edwards DIDN’T speak out against the Iraqis; he simply made an excellent point about how disproportionate our share of the alleged “coalition” is. But Cheney has completely distorted it in an attempt to deflect attention from a failure of his administration. It would be laughable, except that I know people are going to fall for it. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/11 "2004-10-06T20:27:15Z")
Remember Blowero, these debates are for fence-sitters to come to one side or the other. These debates aren’t for party faithfuls who won’t change their vote no matter what. Also remember that Moderates attract voters and Activist/Radicals repell moderate voters-the very people who are on the fence. In my opinion, it is more important for Kerry and Edwards to court to people instead of speaking out and offending the ignorant few who run around half-believeing the administration’s bullshit. For Edwards to have decried the actions and involvement in their own country would be to offend a whole helluve lot of people. There will be time for that later. Sam ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/12 "2004-10-06T21:55:09Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Scary but true. I experience that a lot here on SDMB. When someone says something utterly outrageous, I sometimes just don’t know how to respond. It’s like the “Chewbacca defense” on South Park. 😉 Please don’t make me start a thread in Cafe Society to find out what the hell the “Chewbacca defense” means. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/13 "2004-10-06T22:16:14Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Please don’t make me start a thread in Cafe Society to find out what the hell the “Chewbacca defense” means. > **[Chewbacca defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense)** > > In a jury trial, a Chewbacca defense is a legal strategy in which a criminal defense lawyer tries to confuse the jury rather than refute the case of the prosecutor. It is an intentional distraction or obfuscation. > As a Chewbacca defense distracts and misleads, it is an example of a red herring. It is also an example of an irrelevant conclusion, a type of informal fallacy in which one making an argument fails to address the issue in question. Often an opposing counsel can legally object to suc... > [@](#): > > In the South Park episode, Cochran’s use of this defense is so successful that the jury finds Chef guilty of “harassing a major record label” and sets his punishment as either a two million dollar fine to be paid within twenty-four hours or, failing that, eight million years in prison. > > Ultimately a “Chef Aid” benefit concert is organized to raise money for Chef to hire Johnie Cochran for his defense. The concert (a parody of Live Aid) features his old showbiz friends—Elton John, Ozzy Osbourne, and others (the real-life artists recorded songs for the episode and accompanying album). In the concert Johnnie Cochran experiences a change of heart, decides to represent Chef for free and again successfully uses the Chewbacca defense, this time to acquit Chef and make the record company acknowledge his authorship. > > _Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, you must now decide whether to reverse the decision for my client Chef. I know he seems guilty, but ladies and gentlemen… [pulling down a diagram of Chewbacca] This is Chewbacca. Now think about that for one moment—that does not make sense. Why am I talking about Chewbacca when a man’s life is on the line? Why? I’ll tell you why: I don’t know. > It does not make sense. If Chewbacca does not make sense, you must acquit!_ > [pulling a monkey out of his pocket] _Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey!_ [one juror’s head explodes] ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/14 "2004-10-06T23:40:24Z")
I also couldn’t figure out exactly what the hell Cheney was talking about. I assumed it involved a lie, but that doesn’t help much. There must be well over 10,000 Iraqi fatalities since we started the war, so if we counted all those as if they were allied casualties, then I guess the US military casualty figures would seem small by comparison. This administration has a problem with pulling numbers out of its collective ass. Remember the “75%” figure Bush has been throwing around? “We’ve killed or captured 75% of the Al Qaida leadership.” Okay; 75 percent of **what**? The same question apparently occurred to Wolf Blitzer, and he tried to get Condaleeza Rice to answer it. It went approximately like this: > [@](#): > > WB: Now, the 75 percent figure, what number is that 75 percent of? > > CR: Ah, 75 percent of the known Al Qaida leadership. > > WB: But what number? How many individuals? > > CR: Ah, I would say somewhere from the tens to the hundreds. I couldn’t make this stuff up. If only there were somebody Ms. Rice could ask… somebody high up in national security… maybe even an adviser to the President… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/15 "2004-10-06T23:55:06Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > If only there were somebody Ms. Rice could ask… somebody high up in national security… maybe even an adviser to the President… She might even have asked the President himself, except that he was busy in Cleveland last night. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/16 "2004-10-07T00:02:23Z")
Yeah, thanx, **Baldy** , I have been wondering about that forever, that whole 75% of “known terrorists” or “Al-Queda” leadership. So, basicly, Wolf said “Cite?” and she folded? For the life of me, I can’t figure out how they can perform a quantitative judgement on a deeply clandestine group, and deliver that number with the calm assurance of fact. And this “…tens to hundreds…” shit. Isn’t that what people are referring to when they talk about an “order of magnitude”? And is Wolf Blitzed the first reporter with sufficient _cojones_ to ask the goddam question? No shit? They’ve been delivering that sound bite now for _months_! It doesn’t seem to matter much how liberal the media is if its made up of up-sucking lickspittles. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/17 "2004-10-07T00:22:12Z")
France? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/18 "2004-10-07T00:33:06Z")
This thread is a clusterfuck. I recall that the allies invaded the Netherlands in the second world war. Don’t fuckin tell me that my father and grandfather, both Dutch, (who fought as a major in the British army during the war) do not qualify as allies. Same goes for de Gaulle and the allied invasion of France. ETC etc etc The contribution of civilized Iraqis towards their country is truly heroic and fuck all of you for minimizing it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/19 "2004-10-07T00:34:21Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > France? > 😃 Don’t forget Germany and Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/20 "2004-10-07T00:42:09Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I recall that the allies invaded the Netherlands in the second world war. Don’t fuckin tell me that my father and grandfather, both Dutch, (who fought as a major in the British army during the war) do not qualify as allies. How does this even remotely compare to Iraq? The Netherlands had been invaded by Germany, and we were fighting them. We are fighting against a domestic Iraqi insurgency today; are they our allies also? How do you decide which dead Iraqis to count? We are the occupiers; to whom are we analagous in your WWII example? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896.md?page=2)