# Through the looking glass: Since when does the country you INVADED count as an ally? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896 "2004-10-06T18:58:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/21 "2004-10-07T00:48:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _grienspace said:_ > The contribution of civilized Iraqis towards their country is truly heroic and fuck all of you for minimizing it. I wonder if the US military is keeping track of civilized versus barbarian Iraqi deaths… But the real answer to your post is that the Iraqi invasion is not World War 2 and may I say fuck you for equating them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/22 "2004-10-07T00:52:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > … > > But the real answer to your post is that the Iraqi invasion is not World War 2 and may I say fuck you for equating them. Sure you may. But what the fuck is your problem? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/23 "2004-10-07T00:56:34Z")
I find it interesting to count Iraqis as allies when the upcoming January election there could hinge on who can dis the US more and more creatively. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/24 "2004-10-07T01:00:42Z")
My problem was that you seemed to think people insulted your grandpa, also I’m sick of WWII comparisons of the Iraq invasion. I only added the “fuck you” as it seemed the thing to do at the time, just keeping level with the emotion in your post. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/25 "2004-10-07T01:03:23Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Sure you may. But what the fuck is your problem? I’m going to assume it’s morons who post crap like: "I recall that the allies invaded the Netherlands in the second world war. Don’t fuckin tell me that my father and grandfather, both Dutch, (who fought as a major in the British army during the war) do not qualify as allies. Same goes for de Gaulle and the allied invasion of France. ETC etc etc The contribution of civilized Iraqis towards their country is truly heroic and fuck all of you for minimizing it." I mean, having to deal with that level of blinkered idiocy is going to give just about anyone a short temper. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/26 "2004-10-07T05:32:19Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > The contribution of civilized Iraqis towards their country is truly heroic and fuck all of you for minimizing it. Cheney called. He said he’d like his strawman back when you’re done using it. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/27 "2004-10-07T09:31:37Z")
Kerry said that the United States, Great Britain and Austrailia were the three countries in the original coalition ground forces. Bush said that Kerry forgot Poland! Did Bush forget Iraq? Were there 31 countries in the coalition? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/28 "2004-10-07T09:44:08Z")
**grienspace** , no one is minimizing what the Iraqis are doing. _Shame_ on anyone who would have you think otherwise. Respect for the Iraqis should have begun with some knowledge of what to expect _before_ we invaded their country. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/29 "2004-10-07T11:55:06Z")
Well, I for one welcome our new American invad… er, allies. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/30 "2004-10-07T12:01:24Z")
Oh, and **grienspace** , get a clue. Little bit of history. I’ll keep the language simple: **WWII.** European countries invaded by nasty Nazis. Boo! Allies invade said countried to repel nasty Nazis, helped by brave inhabitants of said countries. They prevail. Hurrah! Inhabitants of occupied countries working with Allied forces. They our Allies. Bravo! **Operation Iraq Franchise.** Middle Eastern country not invaded by nasty Nazis, or even nasty Al Qaeda terrorists. Country minding its own business. County not harbouring weapons of mass nastiness. Coalition invades said country to settle old score. Big man’s daddy failed to land a punch on nasty man with moustache more than 10 years ago. Big man angry. Big man make up lies and send in tanks and soldiers. Middle Eastern country occupied. People there no like invaders. Not happy. Boo! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/31 "2004-10-07T12:07:37Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > France? > 😃 France had been invaded by Germany. We were seen as liberators, not invaders. Our (U.S. and Britain and the Free French/Resistance) stated plan was to chase the Germans out of France and restore its French government. We did all that. Then we left France to rule themselves. It was a _little_ different. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/32 "2004-10-07T13:21:59Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > France had been invaded by Germany. We were seen as liberators, not invaders. Our (U.S. and Britain and the Free French/Resistance) stated plan was to chase the Germans out of France and restore its French government. We did all that. Then we left France to rule themselves. It was a _little_ different. That was a joke, son, a joke. I regret that anyone took it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/33 "2004-10-07T13:45:50Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > This thread is a clusterfuck. > > I recall that the allies invaded the Netherlands in the second world war. Don’t fuckin tell me that my father and grandfather, both Dutch, (who fought as a major in the British army during the war) do not qualify as allies. > > Same goes for de Gaulle and the allied invasion of France. ETC etc etc > > The contribution of civilized Iraqis towards their country is truly heroic and fuck all of you for minimizing it. Exactly. It’s ironic that I’m being insulted for agreeing with Cheney by people who clearly are too fucking stupid to even understand the point being made by him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/34 "2004-10-07T13:48:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Exactly. > > It’s ironic that I’m being insulted for agreeing with Cheney by people who clearly are too fucking stupid to even understand the point being made by him. I understand the point; I think the point was misleading at best, and an outright lie at worst. As previously noted, Bush didn’t include Iraq among the coalition of the willing when he was talking about them last Thursday; did Bush forget our most important ally, or is this just a brand spanking new talking point invented over the weekend in order to, once again, falsely impugn the integrity of a Democrat? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/35 "2004-10-07T13:53:53Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > I couldn’t make this stuff up. If only there were somebody Ms. Rice could ask… somebody high up in national security… maybe even an adviser to the President… That has to be a joke. Rice just doing an “Oh duh” because she doesn’t know? Ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/36 "2004-10-07T14:05:10Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I understand the point; I don’t think you do. In a moment I’ll attack your first post to this thread. > [@](#): > > As previously noted, Bush didn’t include Iraq among the coalition of the willing when he was talking about them last Thursday; did Bush forget our most important ally, or is this just a brand spanking new talking point invented over the weekend in order to, once again, falsely impugn the integrity of a Democrat? It’s’ interesting that you somehow put this onto the Republicans as if they invented it or even brought it up. Edwards was the one who set this up. He was the one who decided to not count the Iraqi casualties. Cheney just pointed it out. BTW, the fact is that Bush did mention that the people of Iraq are fighting for their freedom during the debate last Thursday. > [@](#): > > Let me first tell you that the best way for Iraq to be safe and secure is for Iraqi citizens to be trained to do the job. > > And that’s what we’re doing. We’ve got 100,000 trained now, 125,000 by the end of this year, 200,000 by the end of next year. That is the best way. We’ll never succeed in Iraq if the Iraqi citizens do not want to take matters into their own hands to protect themselves. I believe they want to. Prime Minister Allawi believes they want to. [cite](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_0930.html) So, your accusation that Bush “forgot our most important ally” is flat out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/37 "2004-10-07T14:11:32Z")
Let’s try this in small words, shall we? Last week, Kerry used the same words: Kerry said that 90% of casualties were American. He also said the coalition was tiny, and mentioned England and Australia. Bush told him he was wrong to say the coalition was tiny, and brought up Poland. **Why did Bush not bring up Iraq, if Iraq is part of the coalition? Why did Bush not tell Kerry he was wrong about the 90% last week?** Way I see it, either Bush forgot about Iraq’s being part of the coalition, or else including Iraq as part of the coalition is an entirely novel argument. Yes, yes, yes, of course he mentioned them as a new police force, grossly exaggerrating their training and effectiveness. He did NOT mention them as part of the coalition. And he was correct not to do so: they’re not part of the coalition. They’re a subsidiary right now of the occupying power; we all hope that eventually they’ll be a free and sovereign force. But calling them an “ally” is the same sort of doublespeak nonsense Wal-Mart uses when they call their employees “associates.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/38 "2004-10-07T14:16:21Z")
Either you get that it’s stupid to call Iraq an “ally” against itself or you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/39 "2004-10-07T14:18:07Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > It’s an interesting argument. I don’t think we can count them as allies, since right now they’re essentially US employees. Sure, technically they’re under the control of the Iraqi Interim Government, but considering that we handpicked that interim government, and that we’re financing it, they’re for all intents and purposes working for the US. What you are saying makes no sense. Currently, about half of the casualties are Iraqi police and military that are fighting alongside our troops. The fact that the US is helping to set up the interim government takes nothing away from this. > [@](#): > > An ally, in humanese, is an equal partner, not an underling. If we’re going to include those causalties in our casualty figure, they should count as US casualties. WTF is “humanese”? It seems you need to invent a language to make your point. In **english** an ally is “one united to another by treaty or league”. > [@](#): > > But it doesn’t really make sense to count them, anyway: they’re victims of war, not participants in war. Until they’re representing a sovereign nation, until they’re armed and trained, they’re victims. What an assholish statement. First of all, they are representing a sovereign nation. Sovereignty was transferred over on [June 28th](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/28/iraq.handover/) you dumb fuck. In any case it is a flat out insult to not count the Iraqi casualties as Edwards and yourself are doing. It doesn’t matter if they are representing a sovereign nation or not, they are fighting and dying and fuck you for wanting to ignore that. > [@](#): > > Last point: Cheney’s point was basically, “You’re underestimating by half the number of people that have died in this war! See, we’re doing a much better job than you give us credit for!” Not a real compelling argument, even if you accept his rationale for including Iraqi casualties. Last point? More like last insane ramble. Cheney said nothing even resembling this. That you can twist his words into this insane statement just shows what a fucking nutjob you are. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/40 "2004-10-07T14:18:28Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > BTW, the fact is that Bush did mention that the people of Iraq are fighting for their freedom during the debate last Thursday. They’re fighting for their freedom _from the US occupation_. They see us as are their _enemy_, not their ally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896.md?page=3)