# Through the looking glass: Since when does the country you INVADED count as an ally? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896 "2004-10-06T18:58:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/61 "2004-10-07T15:07:46Z")
Let me make my own position as clear as I can: 1. Iraqis are fighting, and dying, on both sides of the conflict. 2. Their deaths are tragic. 3. I honor their sacrifices. 4. I have scattered ashes over my clothes and torn my hair from my scalp over their deaths. 5. Edwards was discussing the consequences of not having a broader and more meaningful coalition when entering Iraq. 6. Edwards was pointing out that because we didn’t have a broader coalition, **among that coalition that we did have when we entered Iraq** , virtually all of the meaningful action was undertaken by the US. 7. To illustrate this point, he listed casualties incurred **by members of that coalition**. 8. Cheney, in order to obscure the point that the “coalition” consisted in reality of almost entirely US soldiers and funds, mentioned a fraction of the Iraqis who have died in the conflict. Tell me where I make a mistake. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/62 "2004-10-07T15:19:02Z")
How about all those Iraqi chilodren who were killed by the car bombs last week, while they were waiting for the US soldiers to hand out candy? Are we supposed to number them among our brave coalition freedom fighters? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/63 "2004-10-07T15:19:15Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > Seems like everyone has forgotten the rebellion of the Kurds and the Shiites following GWI for which Bush I was roundly criticised for encouraging but not helping. Does anyone need a cite for that ? I personally don’t need a cite, I remember how we left them swinging in the breeze. On the other hand, maybe it would be a good idea to put it on here anyway, for the benefit of those who either don’t remember, or choose to forget. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/64 "2004-10-07T15:22:33Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **Debaser** , you cretin, tell me exactly what you think I’m denying. You’ve given me so many posts to choose from. But, I like this one the most: > [@](#): > > it’s saying that their deaths are tragic and that they are victims of the war between the US and the anti-US forces there, rather than major participants in that war. Cheney says that they are “almost 50%” of the casualties. [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) says that that they are 38% of the casualties. Whichever of these we choose to beleive, they are certainly a “major participant” of the war. For Edwards and many posters in this thread to ignore them is disrespectful. Cheney (and myself) saw this the moment it was said in the debate, and pointed it out. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/65 "2004-10-07T15:26:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Cheney says that they are “almost 50%” of the casualties. [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) says that that they are 38% of the casualties. Whichever of these we choose to beleive, they are certainly a “major participant” of the war. For Edwards and many posters in this thread to ignore them is disrespectful. Cheney (and myself) saw this the moment it was said in the debate, and pointed it out. First, perhaps I’m wrong: perhaps the majority of these deaths were in combat operations, rather than car bombs outside of police stations. Certainly the impression I’ve gotten is that the overwhelming majority of them haven’t received half the training that an average US cop has received, much less the training you’d want somebody in a battleground to have. Second, maybe you and Cheney saw it, but Bush didn’t see it when Kerry said exactly the same thing a week earlier. Why not? Third, fuck you again for saying I’m ignoring their deaths. I’m no more ignoring their deaths than you are; but because you cannot win this argument on substance, you’ve retreated to attacking my character. Totally classless. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/66 "2004-10-07T15:26:38Z")
Where are the bits where posters ‘ignored’ the fact that Iraqis had died? I can’t seem to find them… So, **Debaser** , presumably you think that Cheney is being disrespectful to all the Iraqi civilians who have died by not including them? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/67 "2004-10-07T15:34:39Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > First, perhaps I’m wrong: perhaps the majority of these deaths were in combat operations, rather than car bombs outside of police stations. From what I understand, most of the US deaths are the same type. Roadside bombs and car bombs are blowing troops is the cause of lots of casualties, not troops dying in combat operations. So what? > [@](#): > > Second, maybe you and Cheney saw it, but Bush didn’t see it when Kerry said exactly the same thing a week earlier. Why not? Maybe Cheney and I are better debaters than Bush? > [@](#): > > Third, fuck you again for saying I’m ignoring their deaths. I’m no more ignoring their deaths than you are; but because you cannot win this argument on substance, you’ve retreated to attacking my character. Totally classless. It’s my character who was attacked first. I was getting flamed by posters here before I even knew that this thread existed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/68 "2004-10-07T15:39:13Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > From what I understand, most of the US deaths are the same type. Roadside bombs and car bombs are blowing troops is the cause of lots of casualties, not troops dying in combat operations. So what? Well, if they’re getting killed by ambushes, and if they’re worse-trained than your average US cop, I fail to understand how you say they’re major participants in the war, rather than victims. However, if you have stats showing that they’re directly responsible for a significant number of enemy kills, this would be the time to reveal those stats. Maybe they’re being killed in ambushes, and maybe they’re very poorly trained and equipped, but nonetheless the ones that died were playing a major role in the war effort. I’ve seen no evidence to indicate that’s true. > [@](#): > > Maybe Cheney and I are better debaters than Bush? Given that Kerry’s been making this argument for awhile, show me, showmeshowmeshowme, that anyone in the Administration used this counterargument before 9/30/04. I claim that it’s a novel interpretation of events. If so, it’s disingenuous to claim that people categorizing casualty figures in the way that **everyone** categorized them one week ago are ignoring Iraqi deaths. > [@](#): > > It’s my character who was attacked first. I was getting flamed by posters here before I even knew that this thread existed. I wasn’t flaming you; your “dumb fucks” toward me are wholly unnecessary and obnoxious. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/69 "2004-10-07T16:04:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I wasn’t flaming you; your “dumb fucks” toward me are wholly unnecessary and obnoxious. …and accurate! Your first post to the thread is some of the dumbest stuff I’ve seen. You’ve shown that you don’t know about the most basic issues regarding Iraq such as the transfer of sovereignty. You twist yourself into knots trying to redefine the Iraqi security personel into something that justifys not counting their deaths. At the same time you continue to insist that you aren’t disrespecting their sacrifice. Your posts aren’t just dumb, their fucking dumb. That makes you a dumb fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/70 "2004-10-07T16:12:14Z")
Thanks for clearing things up for me, **Debaser**. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/71 "2004-10-07T16:24:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > …and accurate! > > Your first post to the thread is some of the dumbest stuff I’ve seen. You’ve shown that you don’t know about the most basic issues regarding Iraq such as the transfer of sovereignty. You twist yourself into knots trying to redefine the Iraqi security personel into something that justifys not counting their deaths. At the same time you continue to insist that you aren’t disrespecting their sacrifice. Your posts aren’t just dumb, their fucking dumb. That makes you a dumb fuck. Er… No. I want you to put down the beer and think hard. Since when is Iraq a member of the coalition against… Iraq? You may count them as Iraqi casualties all you wish. Build a memorial if you like. Cheney isn’t doing that. He’s counting them as coalition deaths, which is just about as disingenuous as a statement can possibly get. There are twenty people patiently explaining to you that you are a moron, and none really disagreeing except you. The odds on us being wrong aren’t good. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/72 "2004-10-07T16:35:09Z")
Holy shit Debaser. Disengage, give up, submit to defeat, and fuck off for a bit. Your take on events is as “creative” as is Cheney’s. Just because you parrot the night’s soundbites and impugn all Democrats(or anti-bushes), who want the facts and figures used properly and genuously, doesn’t make either you or the administration right. You can twist this story up all you like, but the spin being applied by the Administration and Cheney doesn’t fly with most of us. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/73 "2004-10-07T16:49:23Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I recall that the allies invaded the Netherlands in the second world war. Don’t fuckin tell me that my father and grandfather, both Dutch, (who fought as a major in the British army during the war) do not qualify as allies. > > Same goes for de Gaulle and the allied invasion of France. ETC etc etc > > The contribution of civilized Iraqis towards their country is truly heroic and fuck all of you for minimizing it. Chewbacca watched his best friend being tortured and then frozen in carbonite during his struggle to bring freedom to the galaxy. By ignoring his sacrifice, you disrespect everyone who died to destroy the Death Star you insensitive buttmunch. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/74 "2004-10-07T16:50:31Z")
You know, if I have to watch one more Republican pretend to be offended and outraged over some imaginary lack of concern/respect for the lives of a group of people it hasn’t previously given two shits about in the past, I think I’m going to puke. Seriously. If you actually cared about the Iraqis, you’d have cared about them when they were starving under the U.S. sanctions on food and medicine from 1991-1995. If you actually cared about the Iraqis, you might have considered them as a reason not to rush to war unless absolutely necessary. If you actually cared about the Iraqis, you might have expressed some regret in the last year over the more than ten thousand civilians killed by this invasion or the very real possibility that we’re going to leave their country in chaos and civil war. To you, these people are nothing more than a political tool, to be used when convenient and ignored the rest of the time. You assholes make me sick. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/75 "2004-10-07T17:31:39Z")
_—golf clap—_ ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/76 "2004-10-07T18:05:14Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic > Either you get that it’s stupid to call Iraq an “ally” against itself or you don’t. > Nobody is doing this. You people seem to be making shit up as you go along. > > Here is the transcript: > > Quote: > > Edwards: You know, we’ve taken 90 percent of the coalition casualties. American taxpayers have borne 90 percent of the costs of the effort in Iraq… > > CHENEY: Well, Gwen, the 90 percent figure is just dead wrong. When you include the Iraqi security forces that have suffered casualties, as well as the allies… > Cheney clearly differentiates between the “allies” and the “Iraqi security forces”. Cheney’s point is that Edwards is ignoring the fact that the Iraqis are in this fight too. It’s disrespectful to them… Huh? DtC says Cheney is calling Iraq an ally against itself, and they _you_ say “nobody is doing that”. You then proceed to quote Cheney _counting Iraqis as allies_. Nobody’s counting the Iraqis as allies, they’re just…uh…counting the Iraqis as allies. Stop the world; I want to get off. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/77 "2004-10-07T23:48:11Z")
Thanks for starting this thread, **blowero**. At the point in the debate when Cheney went all “Chewbacca defense”, I thought I’d had missed something. Did I have the auditory equivalent of a blink and miss why Cheney was berating Edwards for dissing the Iraqis? One minute they were talking about _coalition_ causalities and I was following along well enough. But in the very next minute, they were talking about Edwards being a big meano for not recognizing all those slain Iraqis that died fighting against…whoever they were fighting against…you know, when they died. What the holy hell? And maybe I’m just not informed enough here, but it’s not as if the Iraqis begged us to go over there and start a TWAT in their backyards. So I’m not sure you can count them among the Coalition of the Willing seeing how they don’t have much choice right now _but_ to fight back. They don’t have enough free-will at this point to group them within the CoW. It’s not like they can withdraw and go back to their normal lives, like the US can. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/78 "2004-10-08T00:07:23Z")
I’m starting to think Cheney was being just a tiny bit disingenuous. Edwards was clearly talking about American casualties and expenditures as a percentage of **Coalition** casualties and expenditures. The fact that Iraqi soldiers, fighting on our side, are now getting killed is irrelevant to the question because they’re **not members of the Coalition**. Took me a while to see what happened because Cheney is truly a master of the straw man; his delivery is so shameless and poker-faced that it may render an opponent speechless. Bush, on the other hand, excels at turning aside a question and then repeating one of two or three points as if it were relevant. Master of the non sequitur. Kerry and Edwards have both shown a slippery side occasionally, but unlike Cheney, they never give me the impression of actually being some hitherto-unknown form of reptilian life. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/79 "2004-10-08T01:30:46Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > I’m starting to think Cheney was being just a tiny bit disingenuous. Nooooooooooo, what ever led you to that conclusion? Of course, to be **dis** ingenuous, one must show a genuous side as well and I don’t think we’ve seen that from the veep in the last 4 years. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896/80 "2004-10-08T02:41:41Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Of course, to be **dis** ingenuous, one must show a genuous side as well Are you sure on that? I mean, it’s not like his politics have ever been remotely gusting… Daniel (Oh, and thanks, folks, for the reality check–I was starting to feel the same way Edwards felt when Cheney confronted him with that awful argument, as if I’d just gone into Bizarro land. This thread has exactly the right title!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/through-the-looking-glass-since-when-does-the-country-you-invaded-count-as-an-ally/267896.md?page=5)