# Thugs firing randomly into crowds. Was this ever done in the past or is it mainly a modern practice? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 8, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296 "2015-08-08T05:41:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/1 "2015-08-08T05:41:40Z")
[Here is a sad local tale](http://www.delmarvanow.com/story/news/local/maryland/2015/08/06/details-released-fruitland-murder/31210831/)of three young men getting dissed at a party and returning with a gun then firing the gun into the assembled crowd. A random kid is hit in the head and dies. You see this scenario repeated in lots of modern urban violence where guns are just discharged at random into crowds that may contain some people the attackers want to injure and lots of non-involved bystanders. Is this kind of randomized shooting unique to modern American gangs and gangster wannabees or was this done in the past as well? In reading about the early to mid 20th Irish or Italian etc. gangs the shootings were generally (seemingly) quite specifically targeted. A bystander may have occasionally gotten shot by accident, but it was not because the perp was firing wildly into a crowd. Is this behavior new or not? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/2 "2015-08-08T07:03:07Z")
I don’t have any stats, but I feel like this is a relatively new phenomenon (early 90s or later) that is a product of black gang culture. The earliest reference I can think of is a scene from Boyz in the Hood where some pissed off gang members fire an Uzi in the air and panic a crowd after getting “dissed”. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/3 "2015-08-08T12:38:58Z")
[Happened in Sweden in 1994.](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stureplansmorden) Some fucking assholes get denied access to a Stockholm night club, return with an assault rifle later that evening, randomly open fire into the entrance, killing one bouncer and three girls. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/4 "2015-08-08T13:42:18Z")
Oh and since you mention race and ethnicity such: The shooter was either an ethnic Swede or maybe half-Swedish, half-Mallorcan. His main accomplice was Chilean. His other accomplice was either an ethnic Persian or maybe an ethnic Kurd, as was their get-away driver. The dude who helped hide them afterwards was from the Balkans somewhere. Don’t know which of these people would, from an American perspective, count as “black” (if any) and which of them would count as “white” (if any). But certainly the shooting had nothing to do with “black gang culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/5 "2015-08-08T15:16:43Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Don’t know which of these people would, from an American perspective, count as “black” (if any) and which of them would count as “white” (if any). But certainly the shooting had nothing to do with “black gang culture.” **Astro** refers to white gangs in his OP, not black. (Yes, the linked article is about black people.) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/6 "2015-08-08T15:32:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > **Astro** refers to white gangs in his OP, not black. (Yes, the linked article is about black people.) **msmith537** mentioned “black gang culture” in post #2. ETA: The OP mentioned the Italians and the Irish – if I’m not mistaken, neither group has, in the U.S., consistently been seen as (fully) “white.” ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/7 "2015-08-08T15:39:27Z")
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe\_Masseria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Masseria) > [@](#): > > The car was a Hudson Cruiser, which like many cars of the era had running boards along the sides. The gunmen jumped on the running boards and the car sped west on E. 5th Street towards the Bowery, guns blazing. > > A Ladies Garment Industry Union meeting had just ended, and dozens of laborers were milling in the street. When they heard the shots and saw the speeding Cruiser coming down the street, they tried to stop them. The gunmen then plowed through the crowd and shot randomly at the blockade, hitting six and killing two, plus a horse. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/8 "2015-08-08T17:23:43Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Thugs firing randomly into crowds. Was this ever done in the past or is it mainly a modern practice? Thugs indiscriminately inflicting violence on whole crowds of people is not a new practice, I can tell you that: [ > [@Bay View Massacre (5 May 1886)](#): > > By Monday, these numbers had increased to over 14,000 workers that gathered at the Milwaukee Iron Company rolling mill in Bay View. They were met by 250 National Guardsmen under order from Republican Governor Jeremiah M. Rusk to “shoot to kill” any strikers who attempted to enter. Workers camped in the nearby fields and the Kosciuszko Militia arrived by May 4. Early the next day the crowd, which by this time contained children, approached the mill and were fired upon. Seven people died as a result, including a thirteen-year-old boy.[2][3] Several more were injured during the protest. ]([Bay View massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_View_Massacre)) [ > [@Bayview Massacre (5 May 1886)](#): > > The Bayview Massacre also took place at this time, where seven people, including one child, were killed by state militia. On 1 May 1886 about 2,000 Polish workers walked off their jobs and gathered at Saint Stanislaus Church in Milwaukee, angrily denouncing the ten hour workday. They then marched through the city, calling on other workers to join them; as a result, all but one factory was closed down as sixteen thousand protesters gathered at Rolling Mills, prompting Wisconsin Govorner Jeremiah Rusk to call the state militia. The militia camped out at the mill while workers slept in nearby fields, and on the morning of May 5th, as protesters chanted for the eight hour workday, General Treaumer ordered his men to shoot into the crowd, some of whom were carrying sticks, bricks, and scythes, leaving seven dead at the scene. The Milwaukee Journal reported that eight more would die within twenty four hours, and without hesitation added that Governor Rusk was to be commended for his quick action in the matter. ]([An Eclectic List of Events in U.S. Labor History](http://www.lutins.org/labor.html))[ > [@Ludlow Massacre (20 April 1914)](#): > > Baldwin–Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night **and fired bullets into the tents at random** , occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a machine gun the union called the “Death Special” to patrol the camp’s perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo, Colorado from the chassis of a large touring sedan. **Frequent sniper attacks on the tent colonies** drove the miners to dig pits beneath the tents where they and their families could be better protected. ]([Ludlow Massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre)) [ > [@Lattimer Massacre (10 September 1897)](#): > > On Friday, September 10, about 300 to 400 unarmed strikers—nearly all of them Slavs and Germans—marched to a coal mine owned by Calvin Pardee at the town of Lattimer to support a newly formed UMW union.[1][2][4][9][10] Their goal was to support the newly formed UMW union at the still-open Lattimer mine.[2][9] The demonstrators were confronted by law enforcement officials several times on the road and ordered to disperse, but kept marching.[10] > > The deputies had spent most of the morning joking about how many miners they would kill.[13] While on a streetcar headed for Lattimer with the sheriff and his comrades, one deputy was overheard saying “I bet I drop six of them when I get over there.”[14][15] > > When the demonstrators reached Lattimer at 3:45 PM, they were met again by the sheriff and 150 armed deputies.[2][9][16] Sheriff Martin ordered the marchers to disperse, and then attempted to grab an American flag out of the hands of the lead marcher.[2][9][17] A scuffle ensued, and the police opened fire on the unarmed crowd.[2] Nineteen miners died, and anywhere from 17 to 49 others wounded.[1][2][3][9][17] All had been shot in the back, and several had multiple gunshot wounds which indicated that they had been targeted by the deputies.[10][18] ]([Lattimer massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattimer_massacre)) [ > [@Republic Steel Massacre (30 May 1937)](#): > > At Hearings under Senator Robert LaFollette, the following points emerged. Police on the east end of the line moved to cut off any possible attempt by the marchers to outflank the police line. Some marchers were beginning to move back toward Sam’s Place when a stick rose from the rear of the marchers’ line and flew toward the police. Almost simultaneously, tear gas bombs were thrown by police at the marchers. > > As several more objects flew toward the police line, an officer in the rear rank of police drew his revolver without orders and shot into the air. Suddenly, policemen in the front ranks drew their revolvers and fired point blank into the retreating marchers. Approximately 200 shots rang out. Within 15 seconds the shooting had ended, but the violence was not over. > > The entire police line now moved forward wielding billy clubs against any in their path. Marchers who had dropped to the ground to avoid the bullets were struck repeatedly by policemen. Even women suffered from these indiscriminate beatings. The film clearly shows Lupe Marshall, a social worker from Chicago’s Hull House, being prodded and arrested. > > This period of beatings lasted for several minutes after which indiscriminate arrests were made. Patrol wagons designed for eiqht prisoners were filled with as many as sixteen, the seriously wounded thrown in without any attempt to treat or dress their wounds. The treatment of the wounded was characterized as callous indifference by the Senate Committee, which declared that “wounded prisoners of war might have expected greater solicitude.” Patrol wagons with wounded took roundabout routes to hospitals. > > Four marchers had been fatally shot and six others were mortally wounded. Thirty others had suffered gunshot wounds. Twenty-eight required hospitalization for lacerations and contusions, and about thirty others received some sort of emergency medical treatment. The gunshot wounds of the dead were all back or side wounds, only four were classified as frontal wounds. ]([http://www.illinoislaborhistory.org/articles/267-massacre-at-republic-steel.html](http://www.illinoislaborhistory.org/articles/267-massacre-at-republic-steel.html)) I can provide more historical examples if anyone is interested. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/9 "2015-08-09T01:12:08Z")
I think the OP was asking about criminals opening fire on crowds in a semi-random manner, not for a history of the labor movement. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/10 "2015-08-09T02:38:41Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > **msmith537** mentioned “black gang culture” in post #2. > > ETA: The OP mentioned the Italians and the Irish – if I’m not mistaken, neither group has, in the U.S., consistently been seen as (fully) “white.” Yes, and I was specifically referring to “African” black gang culture in the USA. Not other marginalized ethnic groups or Swedes. And not that these are organized gang attacks. But they seem like the work of punk-asses emulating something they might have seen on TV or playing Grand Theft Auto. Perhaps more akin to a mass shooting by some white nerd, but with less forethought. Italian and Irish gangs in contrast typically formed as a defensive response against local government corruption and/or as an extension of grudges carried over from the old country. Often they would clamp down on local petty crime in order to not draw unwanted attention to their ongoing illegitimate organized operations (gambling, racketeering, prostitution, drugs, bootlegging, etc) and to gain local support. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/11 "2015-08-09T02:56:08Z")
And the OP was asking if the behavior is new or not. It is easy to see that it is not. A Google Books search with a restricted time frame is all one need to do to disabuse oneself of a belief to the contrary. The multiple results describing people firing into crowds, limited to the results that Google has indexed out of the limited events people have mentioned in books, tells me that this wasn’t a phenomenon invented by black people. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/12 "2015-08-09T07:05:15Z")
The cited history looked (quick scan) to be the thugs in the employ of either the company owners or the Government. The Pinkertons were hired guns who shot whoever they were paid to shoot. Don’t forget Ford in 1938 or so. The not-paid-for-it shootings are the ones under discussion. Whites tend to shoot individuals - Colorado High School, Sandy Hook, a couple of theaters - they seem about due for another shooting by copycats. Random into a crowd seems to be a black thing. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/13 "2015-08-09T09:16:16Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Whites tend to shoot individuals - Colorado High School, Sandy Hook, a couple of theaters - they seem about due for another shooting by copycats. > > Random into a crowd seems to be a black thing. I don’t understand. When James Holmes fired into the audience in that theater in Aurora, how was that “shoot[ing] individuals” rather than shooting “random[ly] into a crowd”? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/14 "2015-08-09T12:21:22Z")
I have lost too many students due to exactly this type of shooting. IMO, it is because they so frequently fire guns as a dominance display with nobody actually getting hurt. “Shots fired” reports are far, far more common than reports of anybody actually shot. As a result, they lose respect for the fact that the gun is a lethal weapon and become far too willing to shoot over wounded feelings. When somebody does get killed, the reaction is surprised shock and it used to baffle me. What did you _think_ would happen if you emptied a pistol into a bar/house/car/crowd? I guess if you see them fired off to no real effect often enough, it must seem a surprise when someone actually gets killed. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/15 "2015-08-09T12:29:24Z")
Missed the edit: In incidents like this one, the shooters are trying to make a “You can’t talk to me like that!” statement more than they are trying to kill anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/16 "2015-08-09T15:29:31Z")
[White v. State - Mississippi, 1934](https://casetext.com/case/white-v-state-1754) > [@](#): > > In prosecution for assault and battery with intent to kill, in which it was shown shotgun was fired into crowded church, conflicting testimony as to who fired shot held for jury. [Morgan v Mulhall - Missouri, 1908](https://books.google.com/books?id=wyBCAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA451&lpg=PA451&dq=morgan+v+mulhall&source=bl&ots=fQPCDhSMkN&sig=XWMHLxwyGxafeq7lFR4NWcH2BBQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAWoVChMItPWK36WcxwIVxyceCh2skAAb#v=onepage&q=morgan%20v%20mulhall&f=false) This is a case in which a defendant tried to argue that while he did shoot a guy, he was charged with shooting into a crowd and the prosecution didn’t prove that there was a crowd or that he shot into it. [1924](https://books.google.com/books?id=aOsPAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=volley) > [@](#): > > On the other hand, the “Circlers” assert that the first act of violence occurred when an automobile drove up to the meeting place of the Flaming Circle and the occupants of the car “fired volley after volley into the crowd” The Flaming Circle was a group that opposed the KKK. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/17 "2015-08-09T20:42:54Z")
How long did you spend coming up with 3 cites across 26 years? People in a theater are sitting individually, not in mass. See the difference? If you wait until the show is over and there is a crowd around the exit, you would be shooting at a group. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/18 "2015-08-09T20:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > eople in a theater are sitting individually, not in mass. See the difference? > > If you wait until the show is over and there is a crowd around the exit, you would be shooting at a group. I can’t agree with your perspective at all here. Seated in a theater is the same as standing in a theater or walking on a street,IMO. If only specific individuals within the theater (sitting or standing, still or moving) were targeted for reason (even shitty reason like “wearing a barrette”) that would be at least somewhat targeted and individual. But sitting vs standing - not seeing the distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Mithras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mithras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mithras)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/19 "2015-08-09T21:23:54Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > How long did you spend coming up with 3 cites across 26 years? Five minutes, tops. It’s remarkably easy to find old examples of Americans firing into crowds. How many citations would be enough for you? With the one I provided earlier I’m up to four. I had several others I didn’t use, including some that predate modern gang culture where the shooter was black. > [@](#): > > People in a theater are sitting individually, not in mass. See the difference? > > If you wait until the show is over and there is a crowd around the exit, you would be shooting at a group. That’s an incredibly fine hair your trying to split. I’m sure if you work at it, you can find some way to exclude any shooting you want from however you’re defining a random shooting into a crowd. It’ll probably take longer than five minutes, though. I have the joke about 80s/90s stand-up routines going through my head: “Did you ever notice that white people shoot at crowds like this… And black people shoot at crowds like this?” ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296/20 "2015-08-09T22:27:39Z")
I was expecting this to be about two teenage girls [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thugs-firing-randomly-into-crowds-was-this-ever-done-in-the-past-or-is-it-mainly-a-modern-practice/727296.md?page=2)