# "Thumbs up" gesture is obscene to Australians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 5, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592 "2004-10-05T01:52:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/41 "2004-10-05T23:12:52Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > One more question about the soup: is it really considered rude if you ladle it towards you? Will people look at me strangely? I doubt I’m going to remember that. Not that they’ll assume I’m anything other than American with my knife-fork-reverse-hands thing. 😉 Actually you’ll get picked as a Yank long before you start eating. Never mind how, we just know. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/42 "2004-10-05T23:29:06Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > “get pregnant” at best, and “get fucked” at worst. See in Australia, we’d say that the other way round. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/43 "2004-10-05T23:51:11Z")
> [@GSV Consolation of Dreams](#): > > The page does scoff at the practice of cutting off the middle fingers of captured bowmen but offers nothing beyond their own assertion for this. I’ll continue to accept the longbow theory as the origin of the two finger salute for now. From the Snopes site: > [@](#): > > First of all, despite the lack of motion pictures and television way back in the 15th century, the details of medieval battles such as the one at Agincourt in 1415 did not go unrecorded. Battles were observed and chronicled by heralds who were present at the scene and recorded what they saw, judged who won, and fixed names for the battles. These heralds were not part of the participating armies, but were, as military expert John Keegan describes, members of an “international corporation of experts who regulated civilized warfare.” **Several heralds — both French and English — were present at the battle of Agincourt, and not one of them (or any later chroniclers of Agincourt) mentioned anything about the French having cut off the fingers of captured English bowman.** Their “assertion” is based on the utter lack of primary sources supporting this particular urban legend. It’s a cute story, sure, but that’s all it is: a story. There’s no historical basis for it at all. > [@Dooku](#): > > One more question about the soup: is it really considered rude if you ladle it towards you? Will people look at me strangely? I doubt I’m going to remember that. Not that they’ll assume I’m anything other than American with my knife-fork-reverse-hands thing. I suspect that this is one of those rules of ettiquette with a practical purpose behind it: namely, if you scoop your soup away from your lap, you lessen the chances of splashing it all over your fancy party clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/44 "2004-10-06T00:15:31Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Actually you’ll get picked as a Yank long before you start eating. Never mind how, we just know. I’ll be the guy with a scruffy goatee wearing Birks and a baseball hat with some strange insignia on it that you won’t recognize. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I suspect that this is one of those rules of ettiquette with a practical purpose behind it: namely, if you scoop your soup away from your lap, you lessen the chances of splashing it all over your fancy party clothes. I suppose - although I don’t really have some chronic soup-spilling disorder eating soup the other way. Still it was a strange thing to specifically mention when apparently nobody in Australia really cares, but I now know it was total crap, just like everything else on that site. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eada6e/32.png) [@Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_You_Big_Red_Fire_Engine)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/45 "2004-10-06T01:28:38Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > **GESTURES** > As mentioned, two fingers is only rude with the palm inward. It is the same as the British usage. This used to be the _only_ rude gesture, but the US style one finger salute has taken over in the last ten or twenty years. Most young Australians these days would have no idea about the two finger one. It’s the only sign I use, and I’m 18. But apparently that’s because I come from a not so big town. As my friend said, “we brought it back with us”. People get it. As for my spelling of arse… it’s shorter that way? And that’s the way I’ve always spelt it. > [@](#): > > Maybe she affects an American accent in her day job as a dominatrix? How did you know? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/46 "2004-10-06T01:36:14Z")
> [@TheLoadedDog](#): > > That site has much that is bullshit, but one thing that really rings true is their advice not to use Australianisms. Stick to international English. Nah, Aussies love a piss-take. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/47 "2004-10-06T01:36:19Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Much blushing and harrumphing ensued from her parents and sister. Over the next few days, each one of them quietly tok me aside and explained that to them “get stuffed” meant “get pregnant” at best, and “get fucked” at worst. > > I don’t have a clue what the usage is elsewhere, but for that one particular family, it was quite clear. In NZ get stuffed never means pregnant but it often means get fucked. But you can still say you are stuffed after a meal without anyone thinking you are telling them to get fucked. **Dooku** there are few Aucklanders here, so you don’t have to ask the Aussies 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/48 "2004-10-06T01:47:55Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > **Dooku** there are few Aucklanders here, so you don’t have to ask the Aussies 😉 The website didn’t have a listing for New Zealand, otherwise I would have. 🙂 FYI, we’re staying at the Ascott Metropolis. My friend’s boss owns a penthouse condo there, and he’s letting us stay there for free. I’ll probably ping you guys in IMHO in a few weeks to ask for bar / restaurant / sightseeing recommendations. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/49 "2004-10-06T01:59:16Z")
> [@Go You Big Red Fire Engine](#): > > How did you know? :eek: The tip off was, “Lick my cunt you arsehole”. I mean, it works for me but it did let the cat out of the bag. ---
**Author:** ![Doobieous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Doobieous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doobieous)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/50 "2004-10-06T05:05:25Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > I’ve noticed that travelling as a man in the Middle East, SE Asia & Latin America (although I have more limited experience with taxis in the latter two; in most of SE Asia you’re actually sitting on the rear of a motorbike) that sitting in the front seat is pretty standard. Sitting in the back would be seen as pretentious. Rules change for women because of gender issues in culture (a woman sitting up front with a male stranger could be scandalous in parts of the ME) and/or to keep her out of groping distance. In the case of a longer distance _louage_ in Tunisia the car isn’t going anywhere until full so you may as well grab the front seat if there first. I noticed in Mexico that the Cabbies tended to throw bags and things I had in the back seat if I was alone and I’d sit in the front seat, rather than putting our bags in the trunk. In the US i typically go in the back seat. Not sure if it’s because _I_ felt pretentious if I sat in the back or not. The cabbies also like to chat with me (especially after they found out I was an American). I did notice for my female friends they’d sit in the front seat as well. I guess we all felt rude if we sat in the back seat when alone. ---
**Author:** ![DRBOB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@DRBOB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRBOB)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/51 "2004-10-06T05:14:02Z")
I was told in Brazil that the “OK” sign (thumb and index finger) is an insult to men meaning “you sit down to pee”. Anyone else ever heard that? ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/52 "2004-10-06T07:17:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > From the Snopes site: > Their “assertion” is based on the utter lack of primary sources supporting this particular urban legend. It’s a cute story, sure, but that’s all it is: a story. There’s no historical basis for it at all. In other parts of that very same cite of yours, the archers are beneath contempt, why would the heralds pay any attention to them except when they started firing. They would be far more concerned about the knights. As for the primary sources, I’m trying to track some down now. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/53 "2004-10-06T08:10:42Z")
> [@GSV Consolation of Dreams](#): > > In other parts of that very same cite of yours, the archers are beneath contempt, why would the heralds pay any attention to them except when they started firing. They would be far more concerned about the knights. I don’t see where the specific phrase, “beneath contempt,” is used in that cite. They weren’t as valuable, because they were peasants: the only people worth taking prisoner were the nobles, because they were the only ones who had enough money to make ransom worthwhile. I don’t think it logically follows that, because you can’t ransom a bowman for much money, then nobody would ever pay attention to them in any other capacity. On top of that, if the heralds _did_ completely ignore the longbowmen, then how the hell do we know that the gesture originated with them? If there is something to this legend, then there must have been someone there watching to write down what they saw, so that six hundred years later we could read it and argue about it on the internet. Good luck with the sites. I ran a few myself, but it just seemed to be the two or three versions of the same unsubstantiated story posted all over the damn place. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/54 "2004-10-06T15:10:44Z")
> [@DRBOB](#): > > I was told in Brazil that the “OK” sign (thumb and index finger) is an insult to men meaning “you sit down to pee”. Anyone else ever heard that? It _is_ considered rude in Brazil, but I’ve always understood it to mean “f\*ck you,” and that the circle formed by the thumb and index finger is symbolic of an anus. In [this interview](http://archive.salon.com/wlust/road/1998/11/19road.html), Roger E. Axtell discusses the Brazilian gesture and other examples of offensive body language. He also repeats the idea that the “thumbs up” is offensive in Australia, so some of his observations might be incorrect–but my Brazilian GF confirms that he’s right about the “OK” gesture’s meaning in Brazil. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/55 "2004-10-06T15:37:56Z")
> [@GSV Consolation of Dreams](#): > > Not really. > That site is talking about the middle finger only gesture, and adding in some obvious nonsense about “pluck yew” becoming “f\*ck you”. > > The page does scoff at the practice of cutting off the middle fingers of captured bowmen but offers nothing beyond their own assertion for this. I’ll continue to accept the longbow theory as the origin of the two finger salute for now. > > The 2 fingered gesture is a different thing entirely, it has a less defined meaning and is generally considered less rude than the single finger. I’ve never seen any serious cite disputing it’s origin with English longbowmen. Well, that works both ways. There’s no evidence that it actually happened either. I was exactly the same as you (having seen it on the History Channel), but there’s simply no evidence. More importantly, why cut off the fingers of these particulr peasants when captured peasants were killed anyway. See here for [GQ](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244213) discussion on it, especially confirmation of the general treatment of captured peasants. It’s a shame that Snopes haven’t fixed that article yet. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/56 "2004-10-06T15:51:03Z")
My comments on some of the points in the site pointed to by Dooku: > [@](#): > > Use titles, Mr., Mrs., and Miss when first introduced. > Australians generally move to a first-name basis quickly. Still, wait to use first names until invited to do so. I don’t think any Australian would be offended by being addressed on a first name basis at first introduction. First names are pretty ubiquitous at all levels of society. > [@](#): > > Barbecues – very informal “cook outs” – are popular in Australia. Sometimes guests bring their own meat or other items. I wouldn’t bring meat. You could bring some food (e.g. a salad or a dessert), and it would be very common (almost mandatory) to bring beer or wine. > [@](#): > > For business, men should wear conservative jackets and ties. During the summer months, jackets are often removed. Women should wear skirts and blouses or dresses. It’s far more common for women to wear slacks or a suit with trousers than to wear skirt or dress in a business setting these days. This must have been written at least 20 years ago. > [@](#): > > o When invited to an Australian’s home, bring a small gift (flowers, chocolates, or books about your home country or region) for your hosts. > o Australia produces excellent wine. Taking wine would be like taking sand to the desert. Wine is a very common gift to bring when invited to someone’s home, and if you come from a place that makes wine (like the US), some wine from your country would be a nice touch. While Australians know they make great wine, they don;t think that foreign wines are all inferior. > [@](#): > > Many Australian politicians have declined the designation of knighthood for fear of alienating their constituents. Again, this is way out of date. Australian politicians can’t get knighthoods these days, because the honours system is purely Australian these days. So it’s no longer an issue. > [@](#): > > Avoid discussions about the treatment of the aboriginal people. Well, if you can’t even get the capitalisation of “Aboriginal” right … My advice would be to be cautious, but it’s not a taboo subject. You may be surprised at the opinions that some people express, though. > [@](#): > > Don’t comment on anyone’s accent. Accents often distinguish social class. These days, accents are more likely to indicate what country people come from, and that’s not a taboo subject. > [@](#): > > Do not sniff or blow your nose in public. I didn’t realise that you weren’t allowed to blow your none on a handkerschief or paper tissue in public. I thought you just weren’t supposed to wipe your nose on your shirt sleeve. I must remember to go to the toilet next time I have a runny nose. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/57 "2004-10-06T16:05:30Z")
I’d leave _aboriginal_ lower case in the quoted sentence. It’s not functioning as a proper noun or an adjective derived from a proper noun. It’s just a regular adjective. For example; _The **a** boriginal people of the US are known as Native Americans or Indians. The **a** boriginal people of Australia are known as Kooris, Aborigines or **A** boriginals._ ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/58 "2004-10-06T16:22:52Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > The link that **Bitwise** used is correct on the origin of the inward V sign. Is it? [http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm](http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/59 "2004-10-06T16:23:17Z")
> [@Gest](#): > > I’d leave _aboriginal_ lower case in the quoted sentence. It’s not functioning as a proper noun or an adjective derived from a proper noun. It’s just a regular adjective. > > For example; _The **a** boriginal people of the US are known as Native Americans or Indians. The **a** boriginal people of Australia are known as Kooris, Aborigines or **A** boriginals._ No – if you capitalise “N” in “Native American”, then you capitalise “A” in “Aboriginal” when referring to the Aboriginal people of Australia. It’s the name of a specific ethnic group. On the other hand, you can write “aboriginal peoples of Canada”, because it’s not a specific ethnic group. In addition, I would not write “Aboriginals” – that’s regarded as offensive by some Aboriginal people, because they don’t like you using an adjective as a noun – and “Aborigines” is problematic too – many prefer “Aboriginal people” – thoiugh you just might get away with that. (I once wrote a whole paper on the subject of how to refer to the Aboriginal people of Australia: believe me, I know n awful lot on this subject). ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thumbs-up-gesture-is-obscene-to-australians/267592/60 "2004-10-06T16:28:32Z")
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