# Thus passes McChrystal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2010, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113 "2010-06-22T12:54:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/61 "2010-06-23T12:59:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Either that or he simply didn’t consider that off-hours grumblings about the boss would be quoted in a news article. That’s still stupid, but doesn’t necessarily indicate an accurate view of his opinion of the President or the other people mentioned. Initially I had high hopes about the way he seemed to get that this is a battle of perception and alliances. If he is this ignorant of the perception he creates in American news media, and is foolish enough to jeopardize his intimate alliances with loose talk, does he have any hope whatsoever of succeeding in Afghanistan? I say no, he’s demonstrated complete incompetence in this realm. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/62 "2010-06-23T13:09:25Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yeah, well they’d better have a good security detail in there with them, as Gen. McChrystal could beat up anybody in the room, otherwise. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Simultaneously. 😃 Of course, because the ability to perform violent acts on other individuals is all that really counts. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/63 "2010-06-23T13:54:20Z")
There’s a few moving pieces here. **1. Speaking out to the press about someone higher up than you in the Chain of Command.** - If McChrystal was a lower ranked officer speaking about his CO to a local paper, he’d probably not even be given the chance to resign. He’d be put up on charges and most likely have a dishonorable discharge on his record. (Or not, it does seem they’ve gotten a lot more lenient about letting miscreants slip out of the armed forces without permanent stains on their records these days.) **2. Specifically, speaking against or deriding the civilian military leadership.** - From a political perspective, I think Obama not only comes off weak, but _will in fact be acting weak_ if he doesn’t get rid of McChrystal. I understand the Presidency may be a bit “too big” to be a place where you engage in a dick measuring contest but you **do** need to make it clear who runs the ship. **3. Being at McChrystal’s rank and saying things like this at all to the press.** - Putting aside the issues of chain of command and respect for the civilian leadership, I have to question McChrystal’s competence. His position in Afghanistan is one in which an ability to handle some local political issues is probably at least as important as his ability to conduct a military operation. He’s not running a base or a platoon, he’s in charge of a huge war effort with over 100,000 men and tons of interactions with foreign and local military forces. This is a guy who needs to understand politics as part of his _job_. Saying what he said, to whom he said it, means that he either doesn’t understand politics or he’s simply stupid. Either of those is unacceptable for someone in his position. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/64 "2010-06-23T14:53:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Of course, because the ability to perform violent acts on other individuals is all that really counts. Well, that’s how it was when it was greasers vs. Jocks - back in the days of REAL America! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/65 "2010-06-23T14:58:12Z")
Just curious - not trying to criticize the previous admin. My recollection is that it was no secret that the military brass was less than thrilled with the plan for invading Iraq. At that time were any criticisms of the civilian leadership by the military expressed in a manner similar to this present incident? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/66 "2010-06-23T15:10:14Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Just curious - not trying to criticize the previous admin. My recollection is that it was no secret that the military brass was less than thrilled with the plan for invading Iraq. At that time were any criticisms of the civilian leadership by the military expressed in a manner similar to this present incident? The most vocal General criticizing the Iraq invasion plan was Shinseki, and from what I recall, he did so while testifying before Congress rather then going to the press. There was a General (head of Central Command, I think ) during the last bit of the Bush administration that did an article with Esquire critical of Bush’s Iranian policy, and he ended up resigning over it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/67 "2010-06-23T15:14:08Z")
Remember that the military has had a strong Republican orientation for decades now, especially during the early Bush administration. [It’s been declining lately](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-brooks5jan05,0,5406519.column), but only to the benefit of self-proclaimed independents, not Democrats. That just might affect attitudes towards the President. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/68 "2010-06-23T15:22:54Z")
Stick a fork in him–he’s done. It’s all over except the actual resignation and announcement of a replacement. After a 30-minute meeting with the President, McChrystal has reportedly [left the White House](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37866754/ns/us_news-military/) _without attending_ the planned war meeting that he was purportedly recalled back to Washington to attend in person. (He usually attends this meeting by video link from Afghanistan.) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/69 "2010-06-23T15:37:05Z")
Am I correct in thinking that, if McChrystal woke up one day a week ago and thought “I hate this job”, he could have simply resigned, political pressures be damned? I mean, he’s not under enlistment any longer. If he just quit, he wouldn’t be collected by the MPs or anything. Am I wrong? I guess I don’t understand the argument that he was “trying” to get fired to get away from Obama. Even if it were true, there had to be more graceful ways to wrap up your career. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/70 "2010-06-23T15:43:29Z")
I don’t buy that either. For one thing the’yre using _his_ strategy over there, so if he gets fired people would still blame him. McChrystal does sort of sound like the kind of guy who would not only say these things around a reporter, but approve them and not see it as a problem. And while I’m not a big fan of RS’s non-Hunter Thompson political journalism, I think the worst thing in that article was not the comments McChrystal and his staff made. It was the implication that he’s pretty much calling all the shots in Afghanistan because the political side of things is discombobulated, so he has all the power and doesn’t know what to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/71 "2010-06-23T16:15:06Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Am I correct in thinking that, if McChrystal woke up one day a week ago and thought “I hate this job”, he could have simply resigned, political pressures be damned? I mean, he’s not under enlistment any longer. If he just quit, he wouldn’t be collected by the MPs or anything. Am I wrong? > > I guess I don’t understand the argument that he was “trying” to get fired to get away from Obama. Even if it were true, there had to be more graceful ways to wrap up your career. Yea even if he couldn’t fully quit the military without sacrificing his benefits, I think its pretty safe to say Obama and Petreaus don’t particularly want someone in charge of a major military operation whose heart wasn’t in it, and would find a way to have him reassign if he made clear he wanted out. Plus its hardly a sure thing that this will actually get him fired. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/72 "2010-06-23T16:21:22Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Am I correct in thinking that, if McChrystal woke up one day a week ago and thought “I hate this job”, he could have simply resigned, political pressures be damned? I mean, he’s not under enlistment any longer. If he just quit, he wouldn’t be collected by the MPs or anything. Am I wrong? > > I guess I don’t understand the argument that he was “trying” to get fired to get away from Obama. Even if it were true, there had to be more graceful ways to wrap up your career. Because it’s his strategy that is being followed in Afghanistan. He devised it, advocated for it, and undermine his boss with the press to get it approved. Now, it doesn’t seem to be going all that well. If he’d just walked away, he’d be a quitter and the value of his strategy would be openly questioned. Getting removed from command, however, means he can point to it later and point out how everything was going according to plan when he was undermined by the politicians. Whether it’ll turn into Wimpy Democrats vs. Patriotic Military in 2012 will be another matter, of course. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/73 "2010-06-23T16:24:30Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Am I correct in thinking that, if McChrystal woke up one day a week ago and thought “I hate this job”, he could have simply resigned, political pressures be damned? I mean, he’s not under enlistment any longer. If he just quit, he wouldn’t be collected by the MPs or anything. Am I wrong? He’s never been enlisted. He is a commissioned officer. Once an officer serves out their initial committment (4-5 years), they can generally resign at any time. That being said, there is currently a “stop loss” provision currently in effect to prevent officers from resigning during wartime. At the level McChrystal is at, though, none of this is relevant. You don’t want someone in charge of a major military operation who doesn’t want to be there. A theater commander serves at the pleasure of the President, and if the President thinks that the commander is doing a poor job, or is being insubordinate, or whatever, he’s gone. ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/74 "2010-06-23T16:53:44Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > Just a few comments from an old general staff puke: > > By the time an officer reaches general grade, not just a Major General or a Lieutenant General but a by-God full General with four stars, a full colonel as a senior aide and the whole thing, that officer knows damn well how the game of military politics is played – he would not be in the billet he holds if he were not a master of the political game as well as being a good soldier. That said the game and the traditions of the service enjoin a general , especially a general commanding a politically sensitive combat theater, to keep his mouth shut in public. In private, in discussions with his staff, he and his staff are privileged to say pretty much anything they want, but in public, and especially in talking with the press, any departure from the rules of the game is a provocation and a deliberate one. Based on that I conclude that the comments by GEN McK were a deliberate provocation – it is no defense that the most offensive comments were made by GEN McK’s aides. The aides are his creatures and they know that when ever they speak outside the headquarters family they are speaking for their boss and as their boss’s surrogates. > > What then was the purpose in dropping these turd bombs? At first impression it is one of two objectives. One is to challenge the President and force him to go along with GEN McK’s ideas about how the war ought to be conducted – to give the general a free rein on how to do things, free of the President, free of the ambassador, free of the State Department, free to set up his own fiefdom. The second is to get out of an untenable situation by creating a confrontation in which he is likely to be relieved of his command. There may be other reasons but those two are the most obvious. It certainly is not frat boy snarking or special-ops macho. > > I am old enough to remember Truman’s relief of GofA MacArthur and the furor that precipitated. The Congressional Republicans damn near came unglued. There was a ticker tape parade through New York City, a speech before Congress (Old soldiers never die). History suggests that Truman made the right decision. The Republicans will have hysterics if the President removes GEN McK – as much as anything it will be knee jerk hysteria– but the history of the nation and the traditions of the service teach that the President cannot and must not suffer an insubordinate commander. > > GEN McK better be prepared to come up with a credible excuse for his behavior and the behavior of his personal staff if he wants to keep his job. Otherwise he might find himself as a supernumerary general officer at Camp Swampy, awaiting orders that never come and polishing his own boots. Sir that was VERY interesting to read … as a retired ‘staff puke’ currently working as a Department of the Army staff puke myself I was facinated by your talking about Truman’s relief … thanks for sharing that honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/75 "2010-06-23T17:09:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The most vocal General criticizing the Iraq invasion plan was Shinseki, and from what I recall, he did so while testifying before Congress rather then going to the press. There was a General (head of Central Command, I think ) during the last bit of the Bush administration that did an article with Esquire critical of Bush’s Iranian policy, and he ended up resigning over it. When a military leader is before Congress, that’s actually the one time when they are supposed to answer the questions fully and honestly. Even if it means they directly contradict or disagree with policies and strategies advocated by the President. The whole reason Congress brings political leaders in for questioning is so they can get the “real story” and communicate with top military officials in a manner in which they can offer their true, genuine, professional opinions and beliefs without having to fear reprisal from the President. Now, that’s the “textbook” situation. The real situation is even though they are supposed to be 100% open, honest, and frank with Congress (it goes against their duty not to), in reality when generals go before Congress they essentially try to toe a very tight line. They say enough so that they aren’t accused of being uncooperative with Congress, but they also limit what they say enough that the President won’t punish them for it. Is the President supposed to punish a military leader for speaking openly when summoned by Congress? No, however the reality is there are a lot of ways to deal with people which aren’t “punishments.” The President has essentially unlimited “back room” power over the military leadership and traditionally this is why most of the time when top military guys speak before Congress you see them walking the tight rope of going along with the questions as best they can while trying to avoid doing anything that will get them in hot water with the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/76 "2010-06-23T17:10:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Remember that the military has had a strong Republican orientation for decades now, especially during the early Bush administration. [It’s been declining lately](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-oe-brooks5jan05,0,5406519.column), but only to the benefit of self-proclaimed independents, not Democrats. That just might affect attitudes towards the President. Interestingly enough, according to the Rolling Stone article McChrystal voted for Obama; not sure what his party registration is. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/77 "2010-06-23T17:18:34Z")
He shouldn’t have said even that much. Senior officers are expected not to publicly align themselves with a party. They are supposed to serve the _country_. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/78 "2010-06-23T17:20:04Z")
Only one week ago Obama was saying he was looking for an ass to kick. That was all part of changing Obama’s academia image. He’s seen as an idea guy and not a leader. McChrystal may be a victim of Obama’s image change. He can tell the world he’s a decisive leader and has a big pair. Yeah baby, McChrystal is fired! That image change won’t last long. The oil is still gushing out and hitting beaches. But, McChrystal picked the wrong time to diss the prez. His ass is grass and Obama has the lawn mower. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/79 "2010-06-23T17:22:15Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > I tell you this: > > I am a fairly brave person. I laugh danger in the face. But if I was locked in a room with Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, and Rahm Emanuel and they were all upset with me, I’d turn into a crying five year old and hide behind the credenza. He’s a general with combat experience. Everybody mentioned is a career politician with no military background. More than likely he views them as useless airholes. I don’t see him taking any crap even though what happened falls under his responsibility. McChrystal is holding all the cards. He doesn’t need the job which currently consists of living in Hell’s warmer region. Getting out of there would literally represent a significant lifestyle upgrade. He can earn more money writing books and lecturing while drawing retirement. The only way he can be hurt is if they keep him on. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113/80 "2010-06-23T17:25:39Z")
On the TV (so no cite…CNBC if anyone cares) they announced McChrystal has been relieved of his command. ETA with cite: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) – A source tells The Associated Press that President Barack Obama will name Gen. David Petraeus to succeed Gen. Stanley McChrystal as top war commander in Afghanistan. > > THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP’s earlier story is below. > > WASHINGTON (AP) - A source tells The Associated Press that President Barack Obama has decided to oust Afghanistan commanding Gen. Stanley McChrystal over inflammatory remarks he made about Obama and other high administration officials. > > SOURCE: [http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_OBAMA\_MCCHRYSTAL?SITE=NYPLA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_MCCHRYSTAL?SITE=NYPLA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thus-passes-mcchrystal/544113.md?page=5)