# Tibetan Buddhism Question (Appropriateness Of Exalted Title) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013 "2011-09-03T00:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/1 "2011-09-03T00:15:34Z")
I don’t know anything about Tibetan Buddhism and my goal is not to learn comprehensively about it, even less to (in)-validate anyone’s religious notiions (but I’m putting this in GD just because it’s subjective AND involves religion). At random I came across the web profile of a Western born individual who took to Buddhism like a duck to water. To be fair, the person seems to have gone about this with the zeal of a, well, convert – no dilletante here, the person went the whole nine, learned the language, etc. (You’ll notice I’m being vague here about the person’s prior background as it’s not my goal to ridicule or embarrass any individual). So in addition to taking on a Tibetan name on a daily basis (leaving behind their presumably-prosaic Western name), the individual identifies on the web bio as “Tulku [insert Tibetan name].” My anemic Google research indicates that this honorific corresponds to a lama who is identified as the reinicarnation of some now-decesased prominent religious leader, and that there are only a few thousand “known” (we’ll get to that in a minute) Tulkus. Tulkus are also thought to be able on their deathbed to pick their reincarnation identity (Wiki is shaky on whether they pick a living or future-born person to “transfer” to). Wiki’s also thin on detail as to who the, I don’t know, authenticating body is (it mentions that dying Tulkus might leave hints or riddles for their acolytes to be on the watch for the attributes that at some future point identify their successor – it implies then that his surviving monks have an affirmative obligation to do the Tulku search). Now, I’m lacking a key detail here – whether this person was named a Tulku by acclamation of legitimate accredited religious leaders with this task in their job description or whether at the other extreme they arrogated the title to themselves just on their say-so or gut feeling – or something in between. Even so – and depending on the factual background – how likely is it that “real” (okay, native-born) Tibetan Buddhists would look askance at such a person? Do Tibetans generally welcome Western spiritual seekers who’ve been fascinated by their faith since at least the '60s, or are they kind of annoyed with them as cultural mis-appropriators/mysticism tourists? Is there a particular aversion to or skepticism of newbies who **just so happen** to discover that they merit an especially holy/exalted status, or can it be rationalized that, well, obviously only the most spiritual types would be motivated to make the journey from the West? I’m being a bit skeptical because the remainder of the web bio is packed with a fairly long list of what sound like some pretty un-Dharma-esque resume polishing items. That tends to make me suspect the person might not be in Buddhism for all the right reasons (but it’s also not inconsistent with their being defensive if in fact they’ve historically gotten excessive skepticism or even hostility from native Buddhists or others). I doubt the SDMB gets much readership in Tibet for any number of reasons, but I’d also welcome input from any knowledgeable Western converts or others. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/2 "2011-09-03T01:40:06Z")
Are you thinking of [Tenzin Ösel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzin_%C3%96sel)? Tibetan Buddhism displayed a surprising amount of flexibility in the 20th century, and the current Dalai Lama is very aware of the fact that the current batch of Lamas is unlikely to undergo rebirth in Tibet - and if they do, they are unlikely to be free of the control of the PRC. Look at the fate of the Panchen Lama - the [PRC have a guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyancain_Norbu) they say is his incarnation, while [the one the Dalai Lama authenticated](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima) has been disappeared. In short, if Tibetan Buddhism is going to survive in its current form, with tulkus and such, they’re going to need to be reincarnating in the west. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/3 "2011-09-03T01:48:55Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Are you thinking of [Tenzin Ösel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzin_%C3%96sel)? Still not wanting to make this an attack (or seeming one) on anyone in particular, but no – the fact pattern I derive is different than with that Spanish guy, whose parents were Buddhists and (according to your link) had the opportunity to anticipate/“verify” that they might be giving birth to a reincarnated elder. In this other person’s case, they were born into non-Buddhist circumstances and seemingly “became” a Tulku considerably later in life. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/4 "2011-09-03T07:08:56Z")
Ah, you must be thinking of Steven Seagal. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/5 "2011-09-03T08:01:50Z")
The person in question is weak. Needs a guide, something spiritual, yet never thought of him or herself as the only guide needed. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/6 "2011-09-03T11:59:02Z")
Wouldn’t claim to be an expert, but from the reading I have done, yes a tulku would have to be recognized by a committee of lama’s that were sent looking for the reincarnation of a known tulku. Tulku’s are an unbroken chain that’s documented. Does he name who he is the Tulku of and which Monastery they are from? Should be easy to check with representatives of that monastery to see if he is recognized. If he doesn’t divulge the name of his previous incarnation and the the monastery / school that his previous incarnation is from then I think you can dismiss him as a wannabe looking to suck in gullible new-agers. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/7 "2011-09-03T19:50:48Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Wouldn’t claim to be an expert, but from the reading I have done, yes a tulku would have to be recognized by a committee of lama’s that were sent looking for the reincarnation of a known tulku. Tulku’s are an unbroken chain that’s documented. Generally speaking, Tulku’s are “recognized” according to the tradition of that lineage. Lineages can have broken chains and competing claiments. The previous and current Panchen Lama’s being obvious examples. The past 2 decades or so have seen an awful lot of “tulkus” “recognized” by Chinese bureaucrats and installed in major monastaries. The “Shangrila” Monastary is one. The thing is, at least in my experience of meeting probably a dozen Tulku’s in Tibet in the 1980s, Tulku’s generally seem to be pretty amazing people. They give off a great vibe that I’ve never been able to explain. A blessing from one feels amazing. Tibetans in my experience are quite inquisitive and loved talking to Westerners even in broken Chinese. Althoguh to be fair, if you are a nomad in the middle of nowhere and the first westerner you’ve ever seen just kinda shows up, there isn’t a lot of competition for entertainment. So, a westerner, that spoke Tibetan fluently enough, was educated enough to expound upon Buddhist doctrine, was recognized according to the tradition of the lineage, would probably be welcomed with open arms by the Tibetans (but not by the Chinese bureaucrats). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/8 "2011-09-03T19:56:28Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > If he doesn’t divulge the name of his previous incarnation and the the monastery / school that his previous incarnation is from then I think you can dismiss him as a wannabe looking to suck in gullible new-agers. There’s an autobiography/book on offer, maybe if I remain interested enough I’ll spring for that to see if it contains the genesis story. I’m not sure the person is looking to suck in anyone in a con man or televangelist or corrupt guru way; the vibe I get is of an earnest Seeker in the tiresome '60s-'70s mold who may have let the enthusiasm for the cool mysticism lead to some possibly over-ambitious self-aggrandizement. The parts about the resume that took me aback were that if you took out the funky Tibetan words and strange-to-Western-eyes mysticism, it read a lot like the eager beaver self-promoting extracurricular-crammed c.v. of the striving Ivy student the person apparently was in an earlier incarnation (as it were) before finding the Path. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/9 "2011-09-03T20:23:49Z")
You’re probably right, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t recognized. Again, c.f. [Steven Seagal](http://sangyetashiling.dk/kt/seagal.htm). ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/10 "2011-09-04T14:40:26Z")
Tibetan Buddhist mythology has, for centuries, predicted that the next Buddha will come from the West. So recognized reincarnations, spontaneously occurring in the West, once T Buddhism was introduced here, was to be expected. It is seen as confirmation of the predictive myth coming to fruition sometime in the future, presetting the required conditions, as it were. A community, a sangha, and the right timing, sort of. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/11 "2011-09-04T17:26:16Z")
Well, speaking of Steven Seagal: > [@](#): > > Steven Seagal announced he was the reincarnation of an important lama (Chung-rag Dorje), who had live several centuries earlier and had made his name as a treasure hunter (terton). It was not at all the case that Seagal had arbitrarily adopted his former identity, rather he was able to appeal to the confirmation of Penor Rinpoche, the head of the Nyingmapa school. This “revelation” raised many questions and some confusion among western Buddhists. There was speculation on the Internet as to whether Seagal had purchased the “incarnation title”, whether this was not an act of religious political propaganda designed to exploit the actor’s popularity, and much more. For others the incident was more embarrassing, since Seagal appeared in monastic robes shortly after his recognition. When he was in Bodh Gaya in India at the beginning of the year 1997, he sat down upon the place where the historical Buddha experienced enlightenment, “giving his blessings to hundreds of baffled Tibetan monks.” That last line cracks me up! But some Tibetans weren’t smiling, apparently: > [@](#): > > It would be better to give up the whole tulku system, Dahyb Kyabgö Rinpoche wrote in the Tibetan Review, since it has led to an uncontrollable inflation in the number of monastic reincarnations. So there’s that, too. Both quotes are from _The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama: Sexuality, Magic and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism_. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/12 "2011-09-04T20:34:14Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Well, speaking of Steven Seagal: > > That last line cracks me up! > > But some Tibetans weren’t smiling, apparently: > > So there’s that, too. > > Both quotes are from _The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama: Sexuality, Magic and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism_. This is why all religion, even Buddhism, always breaks down when you look at it too closely. It shouldn’t matter whether there was “uncontrollable inflation in the number of monastic reincarnations.” Either there are past Lamas being reborn in the present or there aren’t. If there are, and you can identify them, there shouldn’t be an unlimited number, just the number that are actually born. If there aren’t, then the number of people being identified as such is not your biggest problem. This is what people mean when they say “Religion and science are two different things.” Science is interested in the truth and religion isn’t. If religion were interested in the truth it would _be_ science. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/13 "2011-09-04T23:49:55Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Tibetan Buddhist mythology has, for centuries, predicted that the next Buddha will come from the West. So recognized reincarnations, spontaneously occurring in the West, once T Buddhism was introduced here, was to be expected. It is seen as confirmation of the predictive myth coming to fruition sometime in the future, presetting the required conditions, as it were. A community, a sangha, and the right timing, sort of. Have not heard this one before. Can you give a little background please? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/14 "2011-09-05T12:27:39Z")
He is called Jampa in Tibetan, and often seen depicted sitting on a chair, a very western pose, and noticeably different than any other Buddhist posture, depicted in the iconography. I have seen his likeness carved into the stone valleys of Ladakh, easily over 100 yrs old. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/15 "2011-09-05T13:53:56Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > He is called Jampa in Tibetan, and often seen depicted sitting on a chair, a very western pose, and noticeably different than any other Buddhist posture, depicted in the iconography. > > I have seen his likeness carved into the stone valleys of Ladakh, easily over 100 yrs old. Can I get a cite here? From what little I know (that is, from what I learned from five minutes of googling), Jampa is supposed to come from Tuṣita, not from the West. [Some](http://www.asia-planet.net/tibet/buddhism.htm) seem to consider Jampa as just another name for the Maitreya, but then the Maitreya isn’t supposed to come from the West either – he’s supposed to come either from Tuṣita, too, or alternatively from “Ketumatī (present Benares),” as per (amongst others) Wikipedia. Despite all that, there have certainly been some Western claimants to the title! L. Ron Hubbard amongst them… [Plus this rambling, incoherent, gay-bashing but cat-loving Mixed Martial Arts-guy](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXPAC3OrLbw)! So anyways, you got a cite on the next-Buddha-will-come-from-the-West-thing? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/16 "2011-09-05T14:44:44Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Can I get a cite here? > > From what little I know (that is, from what I learned from five minutes of googling), Jampa is supposed to come from Tuṣita, not from the West. > > [Some](http://www.asia-planet.net/tibet/buddhism.htm) seem to consider Jampa as just another name for the Maitreya, but then the Maitreya isn’t supposed to come from the West either – he’s supposed to come either from Tuṣita, too, or alternatively from “Ketumatī (present Benares),” as per (amongst others) Wikipedia. > > Despite all that, there have certainly been some Western claimants to the title! > > L. Ron Hubbard amongst them… [Plus this rambling, incoherent, gay-bashing but cat-loving Mixed Martial Arts-guy](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXPAC3OrLbw)! > > So anyways, you got a cite on the next-Buddha-will-come-from-the-West-thing? [Tusita](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusita) is a heaven, so probably isn’t mappable onto our world in a ‘where was he born’ kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tibetan-buddhism-question-appropriateness-of-exalted-title/595013/17 "2011-09-05T16:58:48Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > [Tusita](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusita) is a heaven, so probably isn’t mappable onto our world in a ‘where was he born’ kind of way. Correct. And all that I can find is info that says he’ll come “from Tusita” – nothing that says he’ll come from “the West.” Now, I suppose he could (according to Buddhist logic) come forth from Tusita to be _born_ in the West, but again – I am yet to see any cites which prove that this is in fact what Tibetan Buddhists believe will happen.