# Ticket for no seat belt..... health insurance goes up **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518 "2012-05-20T14:46:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/21 "2012-05-20T20:13:58Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Can’t watch videos here (and find the show unwatchable). Can you summarize what it’s about? Also, I can’t remember much from high school physics, but I do recall something about weights and how forces change or something like that. Okay, maybe I don’t recall even that. But I thought when two forces meet head on the total force is basically summed. Well on an episode of Mythbusters Jamie said two cars hitting at 50 mph was like one car hitting a wall at 100 mph. Lots of people complained so they did some myth busting, impacting two cars together at 50 mph, impacting one car against a wall at 100 mph, and one car against a wall at 50 mph. In the two car impact the damage was a lot closer to the car to wall 50 mph impact than the 100 mph wall impact. The video was Jamie talking about what it’s like to have his own myth busted. In short 40 mph double impact = 40 mph wall impact. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/22 "2012-05-20T20:29:06Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > In short 40 mph double impact = 40 mph wall impact. Yes, but we know a car isn’t a wall. Two cars at 40mph each hitting each other is the same as one car at 80mph hitting a stationary _car_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/23 "2012-05-20T20:32:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, but we know a car isn’t a wall. Two cars at 40mph each hitting each other is the same as one car at 80mph hitting a stationary _car_. No, it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/24 "2012-05-20T20:32:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, it isn’t. Yes, it is. My cite is physics. ETA If I’m wrong here, an explanation would help, not just a snarky comment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/25 "2012-05-20T20:34:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, it is. My cite is physics. My cite is _Mythbusters_ rammed two cars together to test it out. Your physics=FAIL. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/26 "2012-05-20T20:37:12Z")
If car A is going at 40 mph towards car B(also traveling at 40 mph), and car A supposedly hits with an 80 mph force, then it stands to reason that car B _also_ hits with an 80 mph force, right? Where did all the extra energy come from? ---
**Author:** ![ExcitedIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ea5d25/32.png) [@ExcitedIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExcitedIdiot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/27 "2012-05-20T20:40:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, it is. My cite is physics. > > ETA If I’m wrong here, an explanation would help, not just a snarky comment. Do you agree that 2 cars of the same weight stop dead after impact, head on, at 40mph each? They have equal momentum(mass\*velocity). impulse=(mass_velocity before impact)-(mass_velocity after impact) Car vs car impulse=(3000x40)-(3000\*0) impulse=120000 Car vs stationary car impulse=(3000x40)-(3000\*0) impulse=120000 > **[Impulse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse)** > > Impulse or Impulsive may refer to: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/28 "2012-05-20T20:50:17Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > [Myth busted](http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbusters-mythssion-control/)! I’ve been wrong about things before, and i’m sure i will be again. Having just done some research of my own, i see that i was, in fact, wrong on this occasion. But the way to correct someone on something like this is not simply to provide an unexplained link to a video. That is lazy, jerkish behavior. I’m not going to watch a film, just because you can’t be bothered, or don’t understand enough, to give an explanation. **ExcitedIdiot** , your math assumed that the stationary vehicle is, like a rock wall, so solid as to completely stop the moving vehicle in its tracks. But it’s not. If you drive into a stationary vehicle at 40 mph, the crash will transfer considerable energy from the moving vehicle to the stationary vehicle, causing the stationary vehicle to move. As a result, the total impact of the crash would be less than two cars coming together at 40 mph each. As [this page](http://warp.povusers.org/grrr/collisionmath.html) notes: > [@](#): > > Think about it like this: If vehicle 1 couldn’t “see” what it hits, how can it tell if it hit a rock wall or vehicle 2? The “point of impact” remains stationary in the two-vehicle case, in the exact same way as in the one-vehicle-and-rock-wall case. From the point of view of vehicle 1, there’s no difference. > > \*\*Now, if vehicle 2 was stationary and vehicle 1 hit it at 50 km/h, that would make a big difference compared to the rock wall. That’s because now vehicle 2, having the same mass as vehicle 1 (rather than “infinite” mass, as the rock wall), is applying much less force to vehicle 1. \*\* So, it seems that the order of severity goes like this: =1. Car traveling at 40 mph runs into solid wall. =1. Car traveling at 40 mph runs head on into another car traveling at 40 mph. 1. Car traveling at 40 mph runs into stationary car. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/29 "2012-05-20T20:51:48Z")
After the 80mph car hits the stationary car, both cars would be moving (in the same direction), at roughly 40mph each. The roughly comes because some energy would be lost in the collision. This may be the difference that **Czarcasm** is thinking of, but the forces acting on each car at the moment of collision will be the same in both situations. If for whatever reason the stationary car cannot move freely, the situation will of course be different, but that should be obvious. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/30 "2012-05-20T20:53:14Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m not an adjuster, “Underwriter” is the term we need here. > [@jtgain](#): > > but why would I want to use these few minor things that are publicly observable as a rationale for my policy rates when I know that there are a million private things that can’t be observed. Any risky behavior should be fair game for rate increase regardless of how “minor” and “observable” it is, not that poor driving habits are in any sense “minor”. > [@jtgain](#): > > I guess you could say that failure to wear a seat belt is indicative of a private life of smoking, drinking, whoring, and sniffing glue, but that’s a tenuous connection. No connection is being made with smoking, drinking, whoring, and sniffing glue. The connection is between seatbelt use and liklihood of suffering injury requiring medical treatment. And BTW, you seem to be saying that smoking and other “private” forms of behavior and not taken into account in the application process. They are. Some smokers may get away with lying about it, but most are samrt enough to realize that medical providers will usually be able to tell if a patient smokes, and that being caught in a lie is ground for denying coverage. ---
**Author:** ![ExcitedIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ea5d25/32.png) [@ExcitedIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExcitedIdiot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/31 "2012-05-20T21:01:39Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > **ExcitedIdiot** , your math assumed that the stationary vehicle is, like a rock wall, so solid as to completely stop the moving vehicle in its tracks. But it’s not. If you drive into a stationary vehicle at 40 mph, the crash will transfer considerable energy from the moving vehicle to the stationary vehicle, causing the stationary vehicle to move. As a result, the total impact of the crash would be less than two cars coming together at 40 mph each. You’re correct, my second example is wrong. Two cars colliding at 40mph is not equal to two colliding, one at 40mph and one at a standstill. I still stand by my original point: Two cars colliding at 40mph is not equal to one car going 80mph into a stationary car. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/32 "2012-05-20T21:08:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, but we know a car isn’t a wall. Two cars at 40mph each hitting each other is the same as one car at 80mph hitting a stationary _car_. And it is equivalent to a car traveling at 160mph rear-ending a car traveling at 80mph. Subtractive velocities ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/33 "2012-05-20T21:23:31Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I don’t wear me seat belt when puttering around town. As soon and I hit a road that is 45mph or higher I put it on. > [@](#): > > Seventy-five percent of crash deaths and injuries occur within 25 miles of home. More than half of all injury-producing motor vehicle crashes involve low speeds under 40 m.p.h. > > In a 30 m.p.h. collision an unbelted 160 lb. Person can strike another passenger, crash through a windshield and/or slam into the vehicle’s interior with a 4,800 lb. force. > **[Office of Emergency Management](https://www.jmu.edu/safetyplan/index.shtml)** > > Office of Emergency Management ---
**Author:** ![meflin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@meflin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meflin)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/34 "2012-05-20T22:44:34Z")
Why should I give a F\*\*\* about head on collisions. Meflin ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/35 "2012-05-20T22:49:50Z")
Thanks for that brilliant and insightful contribution. It’s probably good that you’ve only posted 73 times in your 10 years of membership. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/36 "2012-05-20T22:53:43Z")
I’m still trying to picture the OP fumbling with his seatbelt as he turns onto a high speed road. Does he then unbuckle again later? ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/37 "2012-05-21T01:25:24Z")
What if the two cars are on a treadmill? Huh?? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/38 "2012-05-21T02:17:53Z")
It’s funny how one’s point of reference changes things. If we were to see a video of an Olympic runner running full-tilt into a wall, we’d expect him to be pretty seriously injured. It hurts just to think about it. But that same speed in a car seems so unbearably slow that it’s hard to take it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/39 "2012-05-21T02:39:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’ve been wrong about things before, and i’m sure i will be again. Having just done some research of my own, i see that i was, in fact, wrong on this occasion. > > But the way to correct someone on something like this is not simply to provide an unexplained link to a video. That is lazy, jerkish behavior. I’m not going to watch a film, just because you can’t be bothered, or don’t understand enough, to give an explanation. Who pissed in your Wheaties? I gave an explanation to **Rhythmdvl** when requested. It’s not my fault you traumatized by a pack of wild Mythbuster clips as a child. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518/40 "2012-05-21T02:40:55Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Who pissed in your Wheaties? No-one did. It’s just a douche move to come into a thread and do nothing but link to a video clip. It has nothing to do with Mythbusters. I would have said the same thing no matter where the movie was from. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticket-for-no-seat-belt-health-insurance-goes-up/622518.md?page=3)