# Ticking Bomb Scenario **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662 "2008-04-02T12:43:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/41 "2008-04-03T20:30:35Z")
Verbal threats are not, as I understand the term, “torture.” I’ve never heard or read of a real-world example where the good guys were able to use torture in a ticking-bomb emergency to get actionable intelligence. Maybe it’s happened, but you’d think torture’s American defenders would have cited any such cases by now. And they haven’t, which should tell you something. Torture is just wrong. It’s immoral. It’s a betrayal of the founding principles of our country. It coarsens those who practice it. It’s illegal under international treaties which the U.S. has ratified and which, under the Constitution, are the supreme law of the land. And it’s ineffective. It’s been abandoned as a method of intelligence-gathering by Israel, a nation under the constant threat of terrorism if there ever was one. John McCain knows something of torture, and he knows that the United States loses all credibility if it practices torture while preaching human rights and the rule of law (after WW2, we prosecuted for war crimes several Japanese troops who’d practiced waterboarding). If we torture others, we subject our own captured troops to similar treatment and lose virtually any standing to then complain or prosecute. No one has been more outspoken in Congress against torture than McCain; Clinton and Obama share his views, although fortunately not because of any personal experience with the practice. I take some comfort from the strong likelihood that, no matter who’s elected President in November, our country will stop torturing. We should never have started. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/42 "2008-04-03T20:55:35Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] John McCain knows something of torture, and he knows that the United States loses all credibility if it practices torture while preaching human rights and the rule of law (after WW2, we prosecuted for war crimes several Japanese troops who’d practiced waterboarding). If we torture others, we subject our own captured troops to similar treatment and lose virtually any standing to then complain or prosecute. No one has been more outspoken in Congress against torture than McCain; Clinton and Obama share his views, although fortunately not because of any personal experience with the practice. I take some comfort from the strong likelihood that, no matter who’s elected President in November, our country will stop torturing. We should never have started. [/QUOTE] McCain also voted to confirm Alberto “Torture Memo” Gonzales, so I don’t have nearly the faith in him that you do. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/43 "2008-04-03T21:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Don’t get me wrong - I’m not going to argue in favour of torture - I completely agree that it’s wrong and ineffective - it’s just that in asking for an example where quality information was _ever obtained_, you may appear to be arguing from a position that it _can’t possibly ever work_, which is not in fact your contention. [/QUOTE] You misunderstand; physical torture, and psychological coercion based upon physical restraint and stimulus can result in a subject offering information. Sometimes the information might even be accurate. The question posed by the o.p. is if there is any real world example of torture being used in an interrogation which resulted in averting an attack and saving lives in the immediate future. This rationale–which is often the basis in which a literary or cinematic character can engage in torture but be morally exonerated–is often used for justification for torture in the real world, but appears to lack actual productive incidence, even in cases where torture is routinely used. Many people trained and experienced in the field of interrogation including physical methods have come forth and baldly stated that information as a product from torture is unreliable and often counterproductive, whereas advocates of the application of torture, here and otherwise, tend to resort to hypothetical scenarios rather than provide concrete examples. Regardless of the answer, methods of torture are in opposition to the stated principles to which the United States nominally adheres, and serves only to undermine any moral authority to impose peace and order in the name of humanitarian justice. Even if it were effective it would be morally reprehensible. But even from a Machiavellian standpoint it appears unjustifiable. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/44 "2008-04-03T22:06:55Z")
I don’t actually misunderstand any of that at all. I just think it’s daft asking for _one concrete example_ - as if one could never be found. As you say, _concrete examples_ don’t make it acceptable - so why even ask for them? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/45 "2008-04-03T22:17:36Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Torture works. Why do you think organizations like the KGB and the Gestapo and SAVAK used it? Do you think they tortured thousands of people over the years just for their own amusment? [/QUOTE] Yes. I do think they tortured thousands of people just for their own amusement. Thing is, when you use routine torture, you need people to carry out the torture. People who don’t enjoy torturing people tend not to enjoy carrying out the torture. So when it is decided that torture is neccesary, they call over Crazy Joe, the guy who enjoys torture, and turn the prisoner over to Crazy Joe. But the problem with this is that while gaining accurate information might be the primary goal of Crazy Joe’s superiors, it is way down the list for Crazy Joe himself. Crazy Joe tortures because he likes torture, he doesn’t give a shit about accurate information except that he’s got to tell his superiors something every so often if he wants to have continued access to more victims. Except in many cases, even Crazy Joe’s superiors don’t give a shit about accurate information. They just want to keep THEIR bosses happy. So in the event of a crime, you grab a random guy, decide he’s the perpetrator of the crime, hand him over to Crazy Joe, Crazy Joe tortures him until he confesses, then you hold a trial and convict the random guy, and suddenly the case is solved. That’s a heck of a lot easier than detective work to figure out who the actual perpetrator was. And besides, if the crime is something like treason there doesn’t have to be an actual crime in the first place. You grab a random guy, torture him, he confesses to treason, you execute him, and report back to your bosses that you’ve uncovered a dastardly plot against the leader and dealt with it appropriately. This is how you get promotions when you’re in the secret police. How many plots against the leader did you uncover this month? None? Maybe YOU are the traitor, if you can’t even uncover one plot against the leader. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/46 "2008-04-04T01:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] So your argument is that torture never produces any useful information and its only purpose is so the government can cow its subjects into submission. And governments that use torture are overthrown by its subjects. Yes, I can see where that’s a logical argument. [/QUOTE] May I ask about you location?, I suppose you are a US citizen, right? Well, I´m Uruguayan, a country that was part of the Condor Plan together with Argentina Paraguay, Chile, etc… So I grew up a little closer and not isolated from the facts of torture applied by a goverment. Intelligence gathering was a very secondary purpose to those fuckers, many survivors testified that they where never even asked anything, it was cattle prod, beatings and rape room to begin with. Mind you, this where the “good” guys fighting against the evil comunists. The fact that these thugs tortured individuals for years is proof enough that they motive wasn´t information gathering. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/47 "2008-04-04T01:52:27Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Well, not to be difficult, but I was a career soldier. I never encountered such a situation IRL or in the literature. [/QUOTE] A room mate of mine was a Viet vet. He told me that he and his buddies tortured several prisoners for information, the chief goal of which was to (a) accomplish the mission, (b) save the lives of his buddies or (c) both. I have no moral problem with this at all. I feel an immense contempt for those who do. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/48 "2008-04-04T03:21:40Z")
One would think that one of the several people posting on this thread would have taken a few minutes and watched one of the several YouTube clips I provided of three defenders of “enhanced interrogation” debating three opponents of torture. If only in the interest of fighting ignorance. The [one by Professor Darius Rejali](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8184928295288095942) is the most relevant. He’s written a book called “Torture and Democracy” and it’s a fairly exhaustive overview of 30 years of research into torture and the regimes that use it. For instance, he’s found that among regimes that torture, “20 to 78 innocent people have to be tortured to find one ‘bad guy’”. Here’s a bit from his speech: > [@Darius Rejali](#): > > So you tell me, does torture work? I’ll give you the opinion of the professional Gestapo. > > In 1942 the Czech resistance assassinated Reinhard Heydrich, Reichsprotector of Czechoslovakia, Hitler wanted results, he didn’t care how, he said these guys don’t listen to anything, and the Gestapo got the three bad guys but to do that they tortured and killed 7,545 individuals, annihilating two villages. They also got 100 resistance members on the side they weren’t looking for but that’s pretty typical results, Battle of Algiers, Vietnam, we can go through them. > > At this point, enter Heinz von Panwitz, a career policeman and head of the Gestapo’s anti-sabotage unit from Prague, he said don’t be stupid. Depend on public cooperation, build up rapport, put out a reward. They got over a thousand tips and in fact what broke the case, what broke the case, was when Korda, a member of the Czech resistance betrayed the entire operation. Korda wasn’t tortured, he lived well, he collected a huge reward, in fact he lived long enough to be executed for treason after the war. [LAUGHTER] > > The professional Gestapo repeatedly decimated the resistance through public cooperation and informers, in France, Denmark, Poland, Norway, Russia, Austria, Czechoslovakia, even in the concentration camps. The Gestapo turned to torture when they lost seasoned pros like Panwitz during the war. And then they had young men with whips running around and why learn good policing when you’ve got a whip. Huge government funded studies, our government-funded studies, have proven Panwitz was right. If you don’t have public cooperation the chances that a crime will be solved falls to 10 percent. Pathetic results. …and he answers the “ticking bomb” scenario: > [@Darius Rejali](#): > > Public cooperation works even when time is short. > > July 21st, London, seven guys get on buses with ticking bombs. The British police got all of these guys in 10 days, and the ticking bombs. > > The big break came in 24 hours when the parents of Mukhtar Said-Ibrahim turned their son over after seeing the security video. > > These were loyal British Muslims. Would they have turned their son over if they knew he was gonna be—“not tortured”? The answer is no. > > Good torture isn’t just a source of bad intel, it destroys the only thing that really works, public cooperation. During the Q&A he brought up another important point: > [@Darius Rejali](#): > > The line between domestic and international, whatever you want to call these things, “not torture”, is a thin one. And every war that we have used torture, the Philippines, when we used that in the insurgency, those guys, they come home, what kind of jobs do they get? They get jobs as policemen, prison guards, and your private security officials. And behind them follows torture. Or “not torture”, call it what you will. Chicago is paying twenty million dollars thanks to Mr. Burge and his fifty detectives who brought all their lovely techniques back from Vietnam. Look, at the end of this war, whether these guys get their way or not, people are coming back. And they’re going to be your cops, your neighborhood officials. They’re going to be your private people. And yes, there is a difference between domestic and international. But this stuff travels. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/49 "2008-04-04T03:48:00Z")
For what it’s worth, gaffa, I agree with Professor Rejali. There are much more effective ways of gathering information than torture and the probable costs of torture far outweigh any possible benefits that are gained. But there is a cost/benefit ratio there. Despite this, people on one side of the issue claim there’s no costs and people on the other side claim there’s no benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/50 "2008-04-04T04:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] A room mate of mine was a Viet vet. He told me that he and his buddies tortured several prisoners for information, the chief goal of which was to (a) accomplish the mission, (b) save the lives of his buddies or (c) both. I have no moral problem with this at all. I feel an immense contempt for those who do. [/QUOTE] So you’re o.k. with torture because a friend told you a story. It’s a bit much to swallow without a side order of facts-got any? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/51 "2008-04-04T04:42:31Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] A room mate of mine was a Viet vet. He told me that he and his buddies tortured several prisoners for information, the chief goal of which was to (a) accomplish the mission, (b) save the lives of his buddies or (c) both. I have no moral problem with this at all. I feel an immense contempt for those who do. [/QUOTE] And how would you feel if the Vietnamese had tortured your room mate and his buddies, to accomplish **their** mission and protect **their** buddies ? Would you have felt immense contempt for anyone that had moral problems with that ? Would you have shunned your room mate if he complained about being tortured ? Or is this “it’s OK if you’re an American” things ? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/52 "2008-04-04T05:24:05Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] For what it’s worth, gaffa, I agree with Professor Rejali. There are much more effective ways of gathering information than torture and the probable costs of torture far outweigh any possible benefits that are gained. [/quote] Please watch the video. He makes it clear that torture is staggeringly _ineffective_, and that innocent people wind up being tortured at a ratio of at least 20:1. And that torture is just stupid. If you torture innocent people, you run the risk of _creating_ enemies where none were before. [QUOTE=Little Nemo] But there is a cost/benefit ratio there. Despite this, people on one side of the issue claim there’s no costs and people on the other side claim there’s no benefits. [/QUOTE] That’s because there is a clear moral element. It’s like the arguments against capital punishment. People will argue the morality of it, whether it has any deterrent value, if society has a right and/or responsibility to extract vengeance…but the best argument I’ve heard is the fact that innocent people have been killed by the state, and that it’s impossible to un-kill a man. This is a relevant comparison given the number of false confessions obtained by torture. Most arguments devolve into each side forced to the most extreme position. But torture already _is_ an extreme. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/53 "2008-04-04T13:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] A room mate of mine was a Viet vet. He told me that he and his buddies tortured several prisoners for information, the chief goal of which was to (a) accomplish the mission, (b) save the lives of his buddies or (c) both. I have no moral problem with this at all. I feel an immense contempt for those who do. [/QUOTE] Well, it sounds like bullshit to me. Simple minded people advocate torture because it seems like a quick and easy solution. Our law enforment professionals seem to get by just fine without resorting to tortue to gather information. On the other hand, why would a captured soldier, terrorist or criminal give any relevant information at all without some system of coercion and reward? At what point does coercion become torture? I have to think the “24” scenario is pretty much bullshit IRL. First of all I don’t think the situation is ever so black and white. Second, I don’t believe that there’s ever just one bit of information that ties the whole plan together. I mean what? the NSA just found out that Pennsylvania Dutch seperatists acquired a nuclear bomb and are going to detonate it somewhere in Amish country in the next 24 hours? And Jedidiah here happens to know the whole plan and fell into our laps? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/54 "2008-04-04T14:06:59Z")
[QUOTE=msmith537] … I mean what? the NSA just found out that Pennsylvania Dutch seperatists acquired a nuclear bomb and are going to detonate it somewhere in Amish country in the next 24 hours? And Jedidiah here happens to know the whole plan and fell into our laps? [/QUOTE] “Agent Bauer? Thou art needed in Interrogation Room 2…” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/55 "2008-04-04T14:17:52Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] A room mate of mine was a Viet vet. He told me that he and his buddies tortured several prisoners for information, the chief goal of which was to (a) accomplish the mission, (b) save the lives of his buddies or (c) both. I have no moral problem with this at all. I feel an immense contempt for those who do. [/QUOTE] One of the crossbeams went out askew on the treadle when I read this… Parsing the meaning from the bottom upwards… You feel an immense contempt for those who… …have a moral problem with… …torture related to you anecdotally as being in some way (hoped to be) expedient What am I misunderstanding in this grotesque statement? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/56 "2008-04-04T14:19:42Z")
The ticking time bomb situation _as presented_ isn’t very realistic. But, in the real world all strategic information is time sensitive. If you have knowledge of enemy positions, strengths, what sort of long terms strategy they are currently working under, etc. these are all things which are going to become less accurate the longer you wait. So if you are certain that you are on the side of good and the other guy is on the side of bad, and thus anything you can do to nullify their team is going to save lives, then yes it’s a “ticking time bomb” situation. I wouldn’t consider that implausible by any means. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/57 "2008-04-04T14:21:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] So if you are certain that you are on the side of good and the other guy is on the side of bad… [/QUOTE] Yeah, but is anybody _ever_ not certain of that? ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/58 "2008-04-04T15:14:27Z")
I’d like to reiterate the point made earlier: Torture should be illegal in all circumstances. **In the vanishingly rare occasion where torture is needed to extract crucial, timely information, the officer in charge should be willing to break the law and risk the consequences.** Otherwise, the information is not so crucial, is it? If it is actually justified, the law will probably go easy on him. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/59 "2008-04-04T15:18:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Yeah, but is anybody _ever_ not certain of that? [/QUOTE] I think you could make a better case in a court of law for the standard of living in capitalist democratic republics over Sharia law, but of course that doesn’t factor in eternity in hell for sinful living… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662/60 "2008-04-04T15:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Please watch the video. He makes it clear that torture is staggeringly ineffective, and that innocent people wind up being tortured at a ratio of at least 20:1. And that torture is just stupid. If you torture innocent people, you run the risk of creating enemies where none were before. It’s an amazing thing I’ve run into before on this board. I agree with someone but they tell me I’m not agreeing emphatically enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ticking-bomb-scenario/443662.md?page=4)