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900 pages of academically published research into a subject are apparently considered, by you, as less worthwhile and valid than your own opinion? Sorry, but I thought the discussion in “Great Debates” was a bit greater than that.
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Yes less valid then my own opinion which is based on specialised training,experience and people I know experiences.
A couple of other points YES you are going to hear the stories from ex P.O.W.S who successfully fooled their interrogators,incredible people whom I admire a lot.
You are also going to hear the stories from ex P.O.W.s who SAY that they fooled their interrogators or did’nt break but may not necessarily be telling the truth for obvious reasons.
But what is highly unlikely is that you ever hear from ex P.O.W.s saying that they broke completely,that they spewed out everything thay knew plus more,also for obvious reasons.
Unless Standard Operating Procedures have changed it was always considered by military commands that if any of their men had been captured alive by forces known to use torture that any information that they had was totally compromised,as far as possible codes etc. would be changed and it was taken as a matter of course that the enemy knew any physical details of your own forces that the prisoner knew.
Why would they bother if torture has been so spectaculary unsuccessful every single time that it has been used in the past?
Finally I suspect that some of the "torture doesn’t work"posters on this board are believing what they want to believe,some are trying to making it believed generally that it doesn’t work in spite of any beliefs to the contrary to discourage the use of an unethical practice by others not for moral reasons but because they’d be wasting their time.
You never know it might convince some of the Wests interrogators who may sometime in desperation be tempted to use it.
I dont think it will convince any psycopathic Islamic terrorists though.
And I would not be stunned with amazement if we even have one or two people here who would prefer the West NOT to use torture, not out of any outraged morality but because they are in sympathy with the people they fear it might be used against or indeed ARE the people it might be used against.
Sorry to double post but was interrupted.
If we in the West pretend to ourselves,for what ever reasons, that torture does’nt work then we will have no defence against it or its consequences ourselves when our own people are captured.
Also some of the posters have made free with calling the realists amongst us "Pro torture"which smears us as people who agree with the USE of torture rather then people who agree that torture works.
I am against torture and in the past have had a more then vested interest in this belief then many if not most Dopers.
You claim to be anti-torture but that doesn’t really jibe with claiming that torture is a valid information gathering technique we should leave on the table.
The ticking bomb argument is a little dishonest. If you can be forced to agree that in any circumstances that it will work,then how do you know if every incident isn’t a ticking bomb. The only way is to torture all of them. All you need is one .
Problem is torture is a values and life changing decision. Torture changes the torturer as well as the on being tortured on a micro level. On a macro level a society that tortures changes itself in an evil way. I do not want bus to be a nation that tortures. I want us to be something better. What differs an America that tortures from any other country that tortures. Where do our claims of being a better more moral nation come from. If we torture they are gone.
You seem to be struggling more then a little in comprehending the contents of posts(and not just mine by the looks of it) so I’ll put in easier terms for you.
If I say that the internal combustion engine causes atmospheric pollution it does not mean that I am in favour of the gasoline engine.
With me so far?
If I say that jumping into a swimming pool will make me wet then that doesn’t mean that I am in favour of jumping.
Starting to get a glimmer now ?
So when I say torture produces information from people who are not willing to give it,it doesn’t mean that I’m in favour of torture.
Do you understand now?
Attack me on what I have actually said by all means.
Please do not attack me on what I have’nt said and please dont try to smear me to other posters with views that I do not hold.
Not once have I said torture is a valid method of gaining information that should be left on the table ,NOT ONCE.
Do you understand that?
And I dont "claim"to be against torture I AM against torture.
Do you understand that?
Also I haven’t advocated killing and eating babies,euthanasia for the handicapped or legalising Heroin.
Do you understand that?
If you do ,can you do me a favour and not try to imply to other people that I have ?
Well, strictly speaking, the labia and surrounding bits. The only way to put a vagina in one is to cut it out of the owner, by which point I think the food processor is overkill.