# Tiger Woods and Barry Bonds **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 9, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919 "2008-11-09T17:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/41 "2008-11-16T15:13:42Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Steroids are illegal because they kill people. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/42 "2008-11-16T17:20:51Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Cite? Common knowledge. I’d link you to a million different cites but the fact that you’re acting skeptical tells me you’re probably one of the people who refuses to believe the facts. If I’m wrong, just punch a few relevant terms into Google and see for yourself. The cause of death will probably be listed as liver failure or heart attack instead of “Steroids” just like most AIDS patients die of “The Flu”, but it’s obvious what killed these people. It’s like saying, “cigarettes didn’t kill this man, lung cancer did!” (people used to really use that argument.) Look how many pro wrestlers drop dead in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. Watch _The Man Whose Arms Exploded_ to see people whose lives have been _destroyed_ by steroids. And all the biased, agenda-driven bickering back and forth either way isn’t going to change my mind, because I know someone who died from steroids. A very close friend of my dad’s went into a roid rage, jumped through a first-story window and died of a heart attack on his front lawn at the ripe old age of 41 with no personal or family history of heart disease. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/43 "2008-11-16T17:59:33Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Common knowledge. > […] > And all the biased, agenda-driven bickering back and forth either way isn’t going to change my mind Wow, you sure convinced me. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/44 "2008-11-16T18:12:12Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Wow, you sure convinced me. Mmhmm, more likely, I think my first paragraph was spot-on, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/45 "2008-11-17T03:23:19Z")
They did not die of steroid use but steroid abuse. They over did it. There are lots of stories about users who have done it a long time with good effects. Same for nearly anything. Some drink alcohol with few effects. Others overdo and destroy their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/46 "2008-11-17T03:26:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They did not die of steroid use but steroid abuse. They over did it. There are lots of stories about users who have done it a long time with good effects. Same for nearly anything. Some drink alcohol with few effects. Others overdo and destroy their lives. People don’t die of crack cocaine use but crack cocaine abuse. People don’t die of heroin use but heroin abuse. People don’t die of meth use but meth abuse. Really this is a horrible argument. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/47 "2008-11-17T06:52:41Z")
It’s true, though. Substances aren’t lethal; dosages are. Drinking water in large enough quantities is fatal; does that mean that water kills people? How many people are there walking around who have done steroids? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? How many people have died? 100? Seems to me that steroid use is about as dangerous as air travel. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/48 "2008-11-17T07:07:22Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah, they would. See creatine, isolated protein, and caffeine. What about 'em? > [@Cisco](#): > > (On second read of your post - what on Earth do you mean by “not harmful (except for the negative side effects)?” I was riffing on the claim that surgery to improve vision is “not harmful (although it does have some negative side effects)”. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/49 "2008-11-17T12:47:04Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah, they would. See creatine, isolated protein, and caffeine. > > Steroids are illegal because they kill people. They’re banned in sport because using something that a law abiding player wouldn’t use to gain an advantage is cheating. No. Top athletes have long since had better options than steroids. HGH for one. And there are already more advanced options than HGH. If I had to guess why fans think differently about these things vs laser surgery, it would be that laser surgery seems like the kind of thing they might have done themselves, whereas PEDs make players less relatable. Eventually, PEDs will advance to the level where the general public will want to use them (anti-aging, for example), and only then will they be accepted in sports. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/50 "2008-11-17T19:06:50Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It’s true, though. Substances aren’t lethal; dosages are. Drinking water in large enough quantities is fatal; does that mean that water kills people? > > How many people are there walking around who have done steroids? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? How many people have died? 100? > > Seems to me that steroid use is about as dangerous as air travel. You’re right, steroids are as safe as water and flying (and so is heroin, crack, meth, stab wounds, and the hanta virus by this absurd logic.) Oh, wait, I meant you’re that other thing: wrong. :rolleyes: Last time I checked, the side effects of drinking water and flying on a 737 weren’t elevated blood pressure, harmful changes in cholesterol levels, alteration of fasting blood sugar and glucose tolerance tests, increased risk of cardiovascular disease or coronary artery disease, acne, increased testosterone levels, premature baldness, alterations in the structure of the heart, enlargement and thickening of the left ventricle, hypertension, cardiac arrhythmias, congestive heart failure, heart attacks, sudden cardiac death, liver damage, aggression, development of breast tissue in males, reduced sexual function, temporary infertility in males, testicular atrophy, increases in body hair (in females), deepening of the voice females), enlarged clitoris, temporary decreases in menstrual cycles, affect fetal development by causing the development of male features in the female fetus and female features in the male fetus, prematurely stop the lengthening of bones (in adolescents), accelerated bone maturation, increased frequency and duration of erections, and premature sexual development. And do you really think the guys who cycle steroids in college and then drop dead in their 30s and 40s are listed as steroid deaths? No. But you’d be living in a dream world to think that’s not what caused it. These drugs have serious, long-term, irresverible effects. It’s not just a statistically insignificant number of users who are harmed by doing too high a dose. But if you think they’re harmless, have a ball. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/51 "2008-11-17T19:43:13Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > It’s not just a statistically insignificant number of users who are harmed by doing too high a dose. I’m not going to take your word for it. I need evidence. So again I ask: Cite? If you don’t intend to cite your claims, please stop witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/52 "2008-11-17T20:34:45Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m not going to take your word for it. I need evidence. So again I ask: Cite? > > If you don’t intend to cite your claims, please stop witnessing. Well, if Tiger’s word is sacrosanct about his surgery, [Lyle](http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Alzado_Lyle.html) must be gospel with his words. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/53 "2008-11-17T23:00:35Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m not going to take your word for it. I need evidence. So again I ask: Cite? > > If you don’t intend to cite your claims, please stop witnessing. You’re not going to believe any evidence. Evidence of steroids’ harm is more than abundant in our society, and if you’ve somehow managed to avoid it your entire life, it’s a very simple Google search away, yet you haven’t done that. Why do you want me to do your work for you? If you want to continue believing they’re safe (that’s all your unfounded belief is - a want), then be my guest. If you want to believe our government has made them illegal and all major sports have banned them just because they’re big meanies and they don’t want you having any fun then don’t let me get in your way. Load up on 'em. [Here’s a cite](http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/steroids.html) for anyone on the fence, or just genuinely unaware of the dangers. > [@](#): > > **LONG-TERM EFFECTS** > Most data on the long-term effects of anabolic steroids on humans come from case reports rather than formal epidemiological studies. From the case reports, the incidence of life-threatening effects appears to be low, but serious adverse effects may be under-recognized or under-reported. Data from animal studies seem to support this possibility. One study found that exposing male mice for one-fifth of their lifespan to steroid doses comparable to those taken by human athletes caused a high percentage of premature deaths. > > Steroid abuse has been associated with cardiovascular diseases (CVD), including heart attacks and strokes, even in athletes younger than 30. Steroids contribute to the development of CVD, partly by changing the levels of lipoproteins that carry cholesterol in the blood. Steroids, particularly the oral types, increase the level of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) and decrease the level of high-density lipoprotein (HDL). High LDL and low HDL levels increase the risk of atherosclerosis, a condition in which fatty substances are deposited inside arteries and disrupt blood flow. If blood is prevented from reaching the heart, the result can be a heart attack. If blood is prevented from reaching the brain, the result can be a stroke. > > Steroids also increase the risk that blood clots will form in blood vessels, potentially disrupting blood flow and damaging the heart muscle so that it does not pump blood effectively. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/54 "2017-07-05T17:30:00Z")
lasik surgery and baseball…any new thoughts? Tommy Pham of the Cardinals is legally blind in one eye due to a congenital eyeball condition. A new treatment plus innovative lens has turned his career around, it seems. Old question, though, and I hope there is a opthamologist/optometrist/ etc. here who can definitively answer the question… It would seem that with lasik surgery, a person’s eyesight might be improved from 20/20 to, perhaps, 20/10? First, is that true? Second, would improving one’s eyesight in that way translate into becoming a better baseball hitter? If the answer to those questions is ‘yes’, then isn’t that sort of surgery actually a form of cheating? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/55 "2017-07-05T17:56:50Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > lasik surgery and baseball…any new thoughts? > > Tommy Pham of the Cardinals is legally blind in one eye due to a congenital eyeball condition. A new treatment plus innovative lens has turned his career around, it seems. > > Old question, though, and I hope there is a opthamologist/optometrist/ etc. here who can definitively answer the question… > > It would seem that with lasik surgery, a person’s eyesight might be improved from 20/20 to, perhaps, 20/10? First, is that true? Second, would improving one’s eyesight in that way translate into becoming a better baseball hitter? > > If the answer to those questions is ‘yes’, then isn’t that sort of surgery actually a form of cheating? The easy answer to this is, no it’s not because it’s not listed as illegal in the rulebooks. The longer answer is, IMO, the surgery isn’t forcing the body to overstep its natural bounds by introducing something outside of it. Not to mention the surgery is completely harmless. On a semi-related note, I always remember an article Bill Simmons wrote that fits a discussion like this. Some basketball player did some colonoscopy-esque medical procedure that essentially cleaned them out completely. He ended up losing something like 10 pounds in an instant. Simmons asked “Why doesn’t every NBA player do this a few times a year? You can lose 10 pounds instantly without replacing it with muscle mass. You can instantly jump higher, run faster etc. Why isn’t everyone doing this?” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919/56 "2017-07-05T21:46:07Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > Some basketball player did some colonoscopy-esque medical procedure that essentially cleaned them out completely. He ended up losing something like 10 pounds in an instant. Simmons asked “Why doesn’t every NBA player do this a few times a year? You can lose 10 pounds instantly without replacing it with muscle mass. You can instantly jump higher, run faster etc. Why isn’t everyone doing this?” Because it’s an anecdote without physiologic basis? 🙂 Meantime kiddies, using anabolic steroids illegally to gain muscle mass/athletic advantage is still [plenty dangerous](https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/anabolic-steroids), even if modern athletes aren’t as reckless as those hapless East Germans used to be. And it still makes sense for pro sports to ban them, at the very least to discourage kids in high school and college from wrecking their health in emulation of their sports heroes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-and-barry-bonds/471919.md?page=2)