# Tiger Woods should be disqualified from the Masters **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596 "2013-04-13T12:53:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/61 "2013-04-14T15:14:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You’re ascribing to me things I’ve not said or suggested and that I don’t believe. I am not saying his failure to apply the correct rule for the illegal drop should be overlooked, or that his alleged lack of knowledge of the rule for the drop should be overlooked. I am saying that in this case, the Committee, using the rules as they are in fact written, applied a penalty that perfectly corrected the proximate offense (taking an illegal drop) and I just don’t see the problem with that. Well, the problem is that they’re ignoring the rule that says signing a card with the wrong score is an offense that means DQ, with one exception: the player was not aware of the facts that resulted in the breach. So, again they are not using the rules as written. They are using the one they like and ignoring the other, IMO, for obvious reasons. Whether you see it that way or not, you want them to overlook a rule, the one that would result in a DQ. If your point is that this ruling may ignore a specific rule, but it’s a dumb rule, or an unfair one (or something, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth), and who cares if they ignore it, this ended up being a fair outcome, one where it’s exactly the same as if Tiger had given himself the penalty during the round–well, fine. I disagree, but that’s a matter of opinion, and everyone is entitled to one. My opinion is that the fairest outcome is one that applies the rules as they exist, without modifying them on the fly for convenience for a superstar. If we don’t like the rules, change 'em for the next time. But my primary point was, and is, this was IMO unambiguously an offense that required a DQ based on the rules as written. By the way, they got it wrong with Dow Finsterwald, too. 😃 Seriously, this seems like an exception that proves the rule. There are countless instances where the death penalty was applied. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/62 "2013-04-14T15:31:56Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Well, the problem is that they’re ignoring the rule that says signing a card with the wrong score is an offense that means DQ, with one exception: the player was not aware of the facts that resulted in the breach. As I point out in my last post, there is a precedent for this ruling. > [@](#): > > By the way, they got it wrong with Dow Finsterwald, too. 😃 Seriously, this seems like an exception that proves the rule. There are countless instances where the death penalty was applied. Can you provide examples of this sort of thing happening at the Masters that supersede the Finsterwald precedent? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/63 "2013-04-14T15:47:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As I point out in my last post, there is a precedent for this ruling. I’m sure there are other examples of bad rulings. Can you point to the rule that you think supported this ruling, and Tiger’s for that matter? I’ve provided the rule that governs it. It’s the one they cited. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve explained why I think Tiger’s situation doesn’t get any leniency from these rules as they’re written. What’s your explanation? What rule do you think applies and why? > [@](#): > > Can you provide examples of this sort of thing happening at the Masters that supersede the Finsterwald precedent? The Masters doesn’t have different rules (other than the normal local rules). USGA / PGA rules apply. There are lots and lots of DQs. I don’t know if there are other Masters DQs, but I suspect there are. Why does that matter? This isn’t case law. If they fouled up the Finsterwald ruling, that doesn’t change the rules. Here’s the rule: > [@](#): > > 6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play > > a. Recording Scores > > After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible. > > b. Signing and Returning Score Card > > After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible. > > PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b: > > Disqualification. > > c. Alteration of Score Card > > No alteration may be made on a score card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee. > > d. Wrong Score for Hole > > The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken, he is disqualified. If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands. 37-5 can provide leniency, so long as the Committee determines the player was unaware of the facts that resulted in the breach. Tiger was aware. Here’s another rule: > [@](#): > > 6-1. Rules > > The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules. During a stipulated round, for any breach of a Rule by his caddie, the player incurs the applicable penalty. That’s it, that’s all there is, unless I’m wrong. Tiger f$#@ed up and should have been DQ’d. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/64 "2013-04-14T16:34:24Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s it, that’s all there is, unless I’m wrong. Tiger f$#@ed up and should have been DQ’d. … and although it may have been said before up-thread, it bears repeating: the drop rule that he actually violated is not that complicated. He just had a brain fart. ---
**Author:** ![looneytunes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/97f17d/32.png) [@looneytunes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/looneytunes)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/65 "2013-04-14T16:56:12Z")
Chief, I agree with your comment @ 10:16 am / 13th. Rules are created to make the game an equal playing field. Some people will break the rules or find a way to take advantage of them if opportunity lends itself, and actively look for ways to do so to get an edge on their game. ( the true sign of a cheater ) Oh, did I forget to mention that Tiger is already a know cheater!? He cheat on his wife… who is supposed to be the one he respects and cares for most, so I am very inclined to think that his morals about the game would be corrupt if opportunity arose to do so… and of course he did, by his own admission, drop the ball in an advantageous position. Rules are rules. The committee decided. They are the Gods, their decision is final and this discussion needs no further comment. As for TW, I believe he would cheat any way he could, if he feels he can get away with it. SO much for fairness, but he already proved what he is… a cheater. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/66 "2013-04-14T17:30:53Z")
> [@looneytunes](#): > > Some people will break the rules or find a way to take advantage of them if opportunity lends itself, and actively look for ways to do so to get an edge on their game. ( the true sign of a cheater ) Oh, did I forget to mention that Tiger is already a know cheater!? He cheat on his wife… who is supposed to be the one he respects and cares for most, so I am very inclined to think that his morals about the game would be corrupt if opportunity arose to do so.. and of course he did, by his own admission, drop the ball in an advantageous position. Rules are rules. The committee decided. They are the Gods, their decision is final and this discussion needs no further comment. As for TW, I believe he would cheat any way he could, if he feels he can get away with it. SO much for fairness, but he already proved what he is… a cheater. I don’t really care that much about golf, but the idea that someone who cheats on their spouse will be dishonest in other areas is really not borne out by the evidence. Think of how many people have cheated in school, cheated on their taxes, or cheated on their spouses. Do you honestly think all of them are not trustworthy in every sense? ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/67 "2013-04-14T18:01:04Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Well, the problem is that they’re ignoring the rule that says signing a card with the wrong score is an offense that means DQ, with one exception: the player was not aware of the facts that resulted in the breach. This is why I asked the question in the other thread about Tiger’s explanation of exactly what he was trying to do. There seem to be two possibilities: 1. He was playing from the point of his last shot, and incorrectly believed the rule allowed him to move back. 2. He was playing line-of-sight, but had the point of entry wrong. #1 is a mistake understanding the rule, but #2 could be considered a mistake of fact. It seems very likely to me that he was operating under #1, but #2 is the only way I can see to make an argument that this falls under the 33-7 rule to not DQ him. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/68 "2013-04-14T18:13:57Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > #1 is a mistake understanding the rule, but #2 could be considered a mistake of fact. It seems very likely to me that he was operating under #1, but #2 is the only way I can see to make an argument that this falls under the 33-7 rule to not DQ him. I guess, but it would be an implausible argument, ISTM. He was WAY off if he thought he was on that line. I don’t think he could reasonably argue that he thought he was on that line. What would he have been off by, fifty yards? Plus, here’s part of his post-round interview (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > I went down to the drop area, that wasn’t going to be a good spot, because obviously it’s into the grain, it’s really grainy there. And it was a little bit wet. So it was muddy and not a good spot to drop. > > **So I went back to where I played it from** , but I went 2 yards further back and I took, tried to take 2 yards off the shot of what I felt I hit. And that should land me short of the flag and not have it either hit the flag or skip over the back. I felt that that was going to be the right decision to take off four right there. And I did. It worked out perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/69 "2013-04-14T18:42:24Z")
Well that pretty much settles that. I can’t see where they’re getting the justification for not DQing him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/70 "2013-04-14T20:32:10Z")
Why didn’t he take a drop where the ball entered the hazard? That’s what I would have done. You drop twice, both times it rolls back into the hazard, and then you get to place it nicely in the fringe or rough. Bump and run up to the hole. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/71 "2013-04-14T21:03:28Z")
That’s not allowed. If it were a lateral water hazard, he’d have that option, but it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/72 "2013-04-14T21:52:09Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > That’s not allowed. If it were a lateral water hazard, he’d have that option, but it’s not. I didn’t know that! ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/73 "2013-04-14T21:56:34Z")
I just have to say this discussion is every bit as nerdy as discussions about d&d or Magic the gathering rules… Brian ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/74 "2013-04-14T22:15:45Z")
Basically either Tiger did not know the rule OR violated the rule to give himself an advantage. Either way he should be DQed. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/75 "2013-04-14T22:42:16Z")
It looks like those four shots are going to cost Tiger the tournament. He’s at -5, Scott and Cabrera at -8. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/76 "2013-04-14T23:05:00Z")
Well, need to take into account that Tiger had been told the drop was fine before the interview. So when he said about the two yards he might have thought that was ok. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/77 "2013-04-14T23:26:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I’m sure there are other examples of bad rulings. Can you point to the rule that you think supported this ruling, and Tiger’s for that matter? I’ve provided the rule that governs it. It’s the one they cited. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve explained why I think Tiger’s situation doesn’t get any leniency from these rules as they’re written. What’s your explanation? What rule do you think applies and why? As I have stated, Rule 6-6d. He signed for the score he actually took during the round. His score was changed only after he signed for it, so at the time he signed it, it was his score. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/78 "2013-04-14T23:30:39Z")
> **[Photos show Tiger Woods may not have deserved a two-stroke penalty](https://sports.yahoo.com/news/golf--photos-show-tiger-woods-may-not-have-deserved-a-two-stroke-penalty-204353354.html)** > > Tiger Woods may have admitted to a violation he didn't actually commit. It doesn’t look like he really went back two yards. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/79 "2013-04-14T23:38:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I’m sure there are other examples of bad rulings. Can you point to the rule that you think supported this ruling, and Tiger’s for that matter? I’ve provided the rule that governs it. It’s the one they cited. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve explained why I think Tiger’s situation doesn’t get any leniency from these rules as they’re written. What’s your explanation? What rule do you think applies and why?The Masters doesn’t have different rules (other than the normal local rules). USGA / PGA rules apply. There are lots and lots of DQs. I don’t know if there are other Masters DQs, but I suspect there are. Why does that matter? This isn’t case law. If they fouled up the Finsterwald ruling, that doesn’t change the rules. Here’s the rule:37-5 can provide leniency, so long as the Committee determines the player was unaware of the facts that resulted in the breach. Tiger was aware. Here’s another rule:That’s it, that’s all there is, unless I’m wrong. Tiger f$#@ed up and should have been DQ’d. I do not watch golf, so I am just giving my assessment of the argument made here. He’s already explained what rule and exactly how he thinks the rule should be applied. He’s cited precedent for showing his interpretation is the correct one. Plus we have on his side that the actual judges of the sport agreeing with him on this call, too. The burden of proof is now on you to prove that your interpretation is correct. You’ve done the first half, explaining why you think he is wrong. You’ve not done the second half, showing the judges of the sport agree with your interpretation in other cases. Obviously, you can’t change this case, but you can provide others. The rules of anything, sport or not, are what are actually enforced, and not what is written on paper. Merely arguing that the rules plainly say one thing is insufficient if proof is provided that the rules are usually enforced another way. In other words, he’s provided what you’ve asked for, so now you should provide what he asked for. If there are as many examples as you say, it shouldn’t be too hard to prove. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/80 "2013-04-14T23:40:27Z")
So, Adam “Mr. Personalty” Scott is the winner. He wouldn’t have been my choice, but: Good on ya, mate! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596.md?page=5)