# Tiger Woods should be disqualified from the Masters **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596 "2013-04-13T12:53:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/81 "2013-04-15T00:03:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As I have stated, Rule 6-6d. He signed for the score he actually took during the round. His score was changed only after he signed for it, so at the time he signed it, it was his score. I already explained that to you. The score didn’t change after the round. Your score is what it is based on your strokes and any penalties that should be assessed at the moment the infraction occurs. Penalties aren’t created when someone points out that he should have taken them. The penalty is created when the infraction occurred. The score he actually took during the round should have been two strokes higher than what he put on his card. Seriously, this is how it has always worked. That’s why there are all those DQs referenced in this thread and elsewhere. Tiger signed a card with the wrong score on it. Nobody is arguing otherwise, including the rules guys who excused it for…well, for some reason that exists outside the rules apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/82 "2013-04-15T00:10:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The rules of anything, sport or not, are what are actually enforced, and not what is written on paper. Merely arguing that the rules plainly say one thing is insufficient if proof is provided that the rules are usually enforced another way. Yes, it’s clear you don’t follow golf. The rules are almost never enforced this way, and in the 2 instances mentioned (Tiger’s included) it was done in contradiction to countless other instances where the poor bastard got DQ’d for exactly the same circumstance. If you’re looking for a precedent, there are a couple of links in this thread that provide examples. The friggin’ rules change mentioned was done specifically because of Harrington’s DQ. > [@](#): > > In other words, he’s provided what you’ve asked for, so now you should provide what he asked for. If there are as many examples as you say, it shouldn’t be too hard to prove. Check this thread for the examples. Or google PGA disqualifications. Seriously, this is weak. It should take you about ten seconds to satisfy yourself that the strong precedent is that guys who sign for the wrong score get a DQ. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/83 "2013-04-15T00:12:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, Adam “Mr. Personalty” Scott is the winner. > > He wouldn’t have been my choice, but: Good on ya, mate! That putt on 18 was huge, and when Cabrera tied him, I thought for sure he’d be so deflated, he’d wilt in the playoff. Great win, big time win. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/84 "2013-04-15T00:30:18Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That putt on 18 was huge, and when Cabrera tied him, I thought for sure he’d be so deflated, he’d wilt in the playoff. Great win, big time win. These guys are such opposites, it’s great to see them playing together. I was routing mainly for Jason Day or Snedecker, but Scott certainly earned it. Tiger was right in his interview-- -10 would have won it outright. Good prediction. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/85 "2013-04-15T00:37:07Z")
I was okay with any of the Aussies, Snedecker, or Cabrera winning. They all seem like good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/86 "2013-04-15T01:01:08Z")
So Matthew McConaughey wins it. I can’t quite root for the guy because I’m not sure I like long putters. Was hoping for Jason Day. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/87 "2013-04-15T01:38:47Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > So Matthew McConaughey wins it. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/88 "2013-04-15T02:01:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > 😕 [McConaughey](http://i.imgur.com/o3bvCXx.jpg) [Scott](http://i.imgur.com/846EsQ7.jpg) Now [which](http://i2.minus.com/iDN3Nv11KOaDl.jpg) is [which?](http://i.imgur.com/TrnZ4DW.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/89 "2013-04-15T02:14:56Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I already explained that to you. The score didn’t change after the round. Your score is what it is based on your strokes and any penalties that should be assessed at the moment the infraction occurs. Yes, you have explained it, and I disagree, and so does the committee at Augusta. In fact I think this is similar (in the relevant matters; in some respects it is different) to the Padraig Harrington case. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/90 "2013-04-15T03:02:30Z")
The Augusta committee doesn’t disagree. They agree that rule 6-6d indicates that Woods should be disqualified, but that they can use rule 33-7 to waive the DQ. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/91 "2013-04-15T03:59:26Z")
NM. Thought this was a general Masters thread… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/92 "2013-04-15T04:59:31Z")
What was the Harrington ruling? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/93 "2013-04-15T05:14:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What was the Harrington ruling? He made his ball move when removing his marker, but nobody saw it except for a guy with a DVR and HD who looked at it over and over. The Euro Tour looked at it 50 times before deciding the viewer was right and disqualified Harrington. It is exactly the same situation as Tiger’s - Harrington violated a rule but didn’t realize he had done so, and an after-the-fact ruling meant he signed an incorrect scorecard and was DQ’d. The Harrington rule is rule 33-7, which allows a player to be penalized after the fact without suffering a DQ for signing an incorrect scorecard. This rule, implemented in 2012, is why references to previous disqualifications (before 2012) are meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/94 "2013-04-15T05:18:31Z")
What are some examples of DQs from pre-Harrington rule that would fall under that now? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/95 "2013-04-15T06:55:31Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > What are some examples of DQs from pre-Harrington rule that would fall under that now? One famous one is when Craig Stadler hit his ball under a tree, and he was going to have to hit the shot off his knees to stay under the branches. He was wearing light colored trousers, and to keep them from getting wet and muddy, he laid a towel on the grass to kneel on. This runs afoul of the rule about “building a stance” and a viewer called in about it. This happened during the third round, and Stadler finished and played the next day and finished in a tie for second place. It wasn’t until after his final round that he was informed of the decision and DQ’d. In golf, if you sign a scorecard that has a score lower than you actually shot (until 2012), the penalty is disqualification. If you sign a card that shows you had a higher score than you actually shot, the penalty is you have to accept the higher score as official, as happened to Roberto De Vincenzo in the 1967 Masters. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/96 "2013-04-15T09:25:01Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > It is exactly the same situation as Tiger’s - Harrington violated a rule but didn’t realize he had done so, and an after-the-fact ruling meant he signed an incorrect scorecard and was DQ’d. The Harrington rule is rule 33-7, which allows a player to be penalized after the fact without suffering a DQ for signing an incorrect scorecard. No, it’s not the same. The rules, as written, provide room for leniency only in narrow circumstances–i.e., the player was unaware (like Harrington) of the facts that resulted in a breach. IOW, he was well aware of the rule, and reasonably thought he was following it–he didn’t even know his ball had moved. Here’s [some clarification](http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2011/April/Rule-Change.aspx) (again, with emphasis added): > [@](#): > > This revision to Decision 33-7/4.5 addresses the situation where a player is not aware he has breached a Rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. Under this revised decision and at the discretion of the Committee, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying Rule, but is not disqualified. > > In revising the decision, The R&A and the USGA confirm that the disqualification penalty still applies for score card breaches that arise from ignorance of the Rules of Golf. As such, this decision reinforces that it is still the responsibility of the player to know the Rules, while recognising that there may be some rare situations where it is reasonable that a player is unaware of the factual circumstances of a breach. Tiger was not unaware of the facts that resulted in the breach–i.e., he dropped 2 yards behind where he had previously hit. What he was unaware of was that this was a violation, which is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > This rule, implemented in 2012, is why references to previous disqualifications (before 2012) are meaningless. No, that’s falt-out wrong and I’ve never heard anyone else assert this. Most pre-change DQs would stand, including Stadler’s. Stadler violated a rule and turned in the wrong score. Like Tiger, he did so unaware he had committed an infraction. That makes no difference (unless you’re Tiger). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/97 "2013-04-15T09:37:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, you have explained it, and I disagree, and so does the committee at Augusta. In fact I think this is similar (in the relevant matters; in some respects it is different) to the Padraig Harrington case. The Committee does not disagree. They acknowledge, unlike you, that Tiger signed for the wrong score at the time he signed it. They just waived the DQ penalty in contradiction of their own rules and guidance. You’re continuing to misunderstand their goofy ruling, which is incoherent relative to the rules as written and applied in every other non-Tiger situation. You’re hand-waving away the difference to the Harrington situation, _which is the key diffference!_ Harrington understood the rule and reasonably believed he was following it, because he was not even aware of the fact that resulted in the breach (his ball moved). Tiger was well aware of the facts that resulted in his breach: he dropped two yards behind where he had previously hit. What he seemed to be ignorant of was that this was a violation–and this ignorance is irrelevant, according to the USGA’s rules! This is not some trivial distinction. It’s the whole and entire reason the DQ can or can’t be waived, according to the USGA’s rules! They made a shitty ruling to avoid the catastrophic impact a proper ruling would have had on ratings. The pressure must have been enormous! So, when I say their ruling was bad, and explain why, citing the shitty ruling as evidence that it was right is begging the question. If I’m wrong (on rare occasions, I am :D), that could best be argued by showing how I’m misunderstanding the plain English of the rules I’m citing. They’re their rules, not mine! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/98 "2013-04-15T10:06:24Z")
From the cite I just provided, some further clarification: > [@](#): > > Q. A competitor returns his score card. It later transpires that the score for one hole is lower than actually taken due to his failure to include a penalty stroke(s) which he did not know he had incurred. The error is discovered before the competition has closed. > > Would the Committee be justified, under Rule 33-7, in waiving or modifying the penalty of disqualification prescribed in Rule 6-6d? > > A. Generally, the disqualification prescribed by Rule 6-6d must not be waived or modified. \ A Committee would not be justified under Rule 33-7 in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty prescribed in Rule 6-6d if the player’s failure to include the penalty stroke(s) was a result of either ignorance of the Rules or of facts that the player could have reasonably discovered prior to signing and returning his score card. > > For example, in the following scenarios, the Committee would **not** be justified in waiving or modifying the disqualification penalty: > > · As a player’s ball is in motion, he moves several loose impediments in the area in which the ball will likely come to rest. Unaware that this action is a breach of Rule 23-1, the player fails to include the two-stroke penalty in his score for the hole. As the player was aware of the facts that resulted in his breaching the Rules, he should be disqualified under Rule 6-6d for failing to include the two-stroke penalty under Rule 23-1. If you’re looking for something analogous to Tiger’s situation, here’s one. And the conclusion? DQ. Same for Stadler. Was Craig aware he knelt on a towel? Um, yes. Case closed, even under the new rule. But he didn’t know that was against the rules when he did it! When he signed his card, he honestly thought he was signing for the proper score! Doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/99 "2013-04-15T12:17:32Z")
> [@looneytunes](#): > > Chief, I agree with your comment @ 10:16 am / 13th. Rules are created to make the game an equal playing field. Some people will break the rules or find a way to take advantage of them if opportunity lends itself, and actively look for ways to do so to get an edge on their game. ( the true sign of a cheater ). Hijacking and taking umbrage with the statement that someone who takes advantage of the rules in some manner is a “true” cheater. What if you simply know the rules better than others? What if the rule-makers hadn’t thought things thru properly (their responsibility) and you find a way around what they were trying to achieve? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596/100 "2013-04-15T12:34:41Z")
Wow, nobody has brought this up yet? [Photos show Tiger Woods may not have deserved a two-stroke penalty](http://sports.yahoo.com/news/golf--photos-show-tiger-woods-may-not-have-deserved-a-two-stroke-penalty-204353354.html). Photos seem to show him hitting the 2nd shot from within an inch or two of the first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tiger-woods-should-be-disqualified-from-the-masters/655596.md?page=6)