# Tigers, Lions and Bears Oh My **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721 "2016-05-26T02:03:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/41 "2016-06-01T23:29:52Z")
> [@flatlined](#): > > I’ve been doing cat rescue for longer than I’d like to admit. Domestic house cats, little fluffy animals, not lions or tigers. I rarely handle an unknown cat without gloves and long sleeves because while they might be small, they have lots of pointy ends and are twisty and bendy. Feral cats get even more respect/fear. The only time I touch them is when they have been drugged into submission. > > If a little housecat can kick my butt without breaking a sweat, I certainly wouldn’t trust a “tame” lion or tiger. For those who haven’t seen it - (nothing gory - just funny). [Pinky the Cat](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_LHlFwlhk) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/42 "2016-06-02T03:44:31Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I really do not know what might result if zebras were subjected to a rigorous selective breeding program with only the most tractable 1% bred to produce the next generation. Given a forced generation time of only 3 or 4 years (enough time to breed a foal, produce it, raise it enough to make a selection for next breeding, then repeat) it would surely be a long term experiment that might not show significant results in a human lifetime. But all animals we now consider domesticated have been subjected to selection for a lot longer than a human lifetime. So my jury is still out on zebras. And it would be an expensive & pretty pointless experiment, because AFAIK horses are better than zebras for every task we have for horses. There are draft breeds for pulling large wagons, thoroughbreds for racing, jumpers for jumping, hunters for cross-country eventing & fox hunting, fancy show breeds, and even minis for house pets. These breeds have been bred for centuries for specialized tasks, and are quite well suited. I don’t know of anything that zebras could do better. Possibly hiding in tall grass savannas, but that isn’t something humans prize much. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/43 "2016-06-02T06:41:23Z")
Pointless, I agree. I wasn’t advocating for it. I was reacting to the declaration that zebras “can’t be domesticated”. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/44 "2016-06-02T06:59:06Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > So my jury is still out on zebras. It’s been several years since I read Jared’s book, but if you have something which can definitively rebut his expert opinion, I’d love to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/45 "2016-06-02T11:24:39Z")
I believe that in G,G,&S, Jared Diamond used horses and zebras to specifically point out the differences between “domesticable” and “tameable”, despite otherwise close comparisons morphologically and in social structure. IIRC, he also cited several unsuccessful attempts to domesticate zebras in recent centuries. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/46 "2016-06-02T12:11:35Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > See [http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/dog/dog.htm](http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/dog/dog.htm) for an example of zebras driven four-in-hand. Interesting. I also like the picture with this caption: > [@](#): > > A half-grown lion cub pulls a cart full of children at Luna Park Zoo in America circa 1930. Attempting this with a full-grown lion would be inadvisable. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/47 "2016-06-02T16:29:10Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It’s been several years since I read Jared’s book, but if you have something which can definitively rebut his expert opinion, I’d love to hear it. No, I make no such claim. My former wife rode and trained horses to a high level of performance, even bred a few, and I was intimately involved in her hobby/business for a couple of decades. I work professionally with wild animals. So I believe I have some applicable background, although not enough to consider my own word to be authoritative. Still, I’m comfortable saying that the “it can’t be done because it hasn’t been done” argument doesn’t totally satisfy me. I wasn’t speaking of training any single animal to a specific and reliable level of performance that would make a zebra comparable to a horse. That does appear to be, if not impossible, at least approaching it. Instead though I was speaking of a lengthy program of selective breeding for tractability (and any other desirable traits that could be augmented by selection while not compromising the primary goal of tractability). I don’t believe this has ever been done. And so I can speculate that it might be – in fact it should be – successful. Why has the zebra never been domesticated in such a manner by any of the indigenous peoples living alongside zebras? Again I’ll speculate. To do so would require a stable society with a surplus of resources and an ability to sacrifice short term benefit to long term goals. A herd of captive zebras, undomesticated but fenced, could supply meat to the tribe all year long. This might arguably be benefit enough, and could eventually result in domesticated zebras. But one major problem would be providing food for the herd. So the tribe would need to grow or collect and transport sufficient browse for the herd, or the tribe would need to become nomadic herders. That might be problem enough to end any such attempt. The additional problems inherent in simply keeping the zebra herd confined or under constant control with limited manpower and subject to apex zebra predators including lions, leopards, and hyenas seem virtually insurmountable to me. At least, not worth the effort when wild zebras are seasonally available for hunting. Add a requirement that individual zebras be identified and rated for tractability (or other desirable trait). Now only certain individuals should be bred to certain other individuals. And their offspring must be kept separate from the zebras that are necessarily butchered for meat, and themselves propagated in turn. And this effort has to be maintained over a period of at least decades if not longer. Never interrupted by a need to eat the “special ones” during a famine. No loss of the herd to wildfire, drought, or predator attack. No war with another tribe, or any of the countless other possible events that would set the entire breeding program back to square one. Given the difficulties inherent in having “a stable society with a surplus of resources and an ability to sacrifice short term benefit to long term goals”, the conditions necessary for a long term breeding program might never have existed. ---
**Author:** ![DudeManBro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@DudeManBro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudeManBro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/48 "2016-06-02T19:37:16Z")
I have heard of cheetahs being kept in the United Emirates. When one of them gets out of hand (biting or scratching) the owner smacks it around a bit to discipline. Getting mauled by a cheetah with its blunted semi-retractable claws and relatively light jaws/ dentition is much more survivable than being mauled by any of the other big cats IMO. If you maintain dominance and watch it around children and the elderly, it could probably be kept. ---
**Author:** ![MacLir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@MacLir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacLir)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/49 "2016-06-06T22:22:22Z")
> [@Stinky\_Pete](#): > > Lions, tigers, bears, monkeys, apes, wolves, and more. Even if raised among humans completely in a friendly environment from birth, there is always a chance they will attack and maul/kill a human. Doesn’t matter if they’ve had a long history of gentle behavior. And what triggers these domesticated wild animals to attack is not always apparent. (I guess domesticated is the wrong word to use). > > Our normally domestic animals like dogs, cats, cows, horses, chickens, pigs, etc have had many generations of the wildness bred out of them. These animals can be raised to be completely safe to be around (unless provoked). [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOmjnioNulo)says it all about domestication ---
**Author:** ![MacLir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@MacLir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacLir)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/50 "2016-06-06T22:38:50Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > And it would be an expensive & pretty pointless experiment, because AFAIK horses are better than zebras for every task we have for horses. > > There are draft breeds for pulling large wagons, thoroughbreds for racing, jumpers for jumping, hunters for cross-country eventing & fox hunting, fancy show breeds, and even minis for house pets. These breeds have been bred for centuries for specialized tasks, and are quite well suited. I don’t know of anything that zebras could do better. Possibly hiding in tall grass savannas, but that isn’t something humans prize much. They are immune to several diseases that limit the use of livestock in Africa. The experiment was tried and failed, according to my information. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/51 "2016-06-07T15:10:10Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That seems like an utterly bizarre argument. Were the dogs allegedly homophobic or something? > > I can’t even imagine how the victim’s sexual orientation could possibly be relevant to a dog attack. Well, since she was a lesbian, she must have been using steroids or some drugs that drove the dogs crazy. [Red Zone](https://www.amazon.com/Red-Zone-Francisco-Mauling-Case-ebook/dp/B00OI7N85U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1465312147&sr=8-1&keywords=red+zone) is a good book on the killing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721/52 "2016-06-07T15:22:05Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Well, since she was a lesbian, she must have been using steroids or some drugs that drove the dogs crazy. > > [Red Zone](https://www.amazon.com/Red-Zone-Francisco-Mauling-Case-ebook/dp/B00OI7N85U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1465312147&sr=8-1&keywords=red+zone) is a good book on the killing. :eek: Judging by the description of that book, the dogs weren’t the only crazy mammals involved in this tragedy … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tigers-lions-and-bears-oh-my/755721.md?page=2)