# Tilman killed by friendly fire. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2004, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668 "2004-05-29T12:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/21 "2004-05-30T05:07:52Z")
Oh, since I never post to a thread that Reeder started, most of in which damn near everybody rags his ass, I get ragged. mea culpa, but if a regular Reeder basher would have posted the response I did, they would be applauded. Ok, I will stick to inane bullshit then. No big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/22 "2004-05-30T05:19:59Z")
At any rate, Reeder, you should be happy in that some of your usual detractors are even defending you from my “Who the fuck is this moron posting bullshit” comments. Such as it is. As the Dope turns… ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/23 "2004-05-30T05:25:32Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Still, **Reeder** didn’t do it in this thread. If he does it so much, you can attack him for it in every other thread. This thread is completely devoid of Bush bashing, so what good does it do to go after **Reeder** about how all **Reeder** does is bash Bush _in this thread_? Talk about a freaking no-win situation. > . But I have not bashed him (Reeder) at all. I simply pointed out that **klaatu** ’s expectation that Reeder \*may \* use this as vehicle to Bush-bash IS reasonable, even if it’s imprudent to say so. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/24 "2004-05-30T05:30:32Z")
I know. I meant **Klaatu** was bashing. The use of “you” was a mistake on my part. It was not intended to mean you specifically, although that was the obvious reading of my post. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/25 "2004-05-30T05:33:02Z")
None required. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/26 "2004-05-30T05:34:13Z")
> [@Klaatu](#): > > Oh, since I never post to a thread that Reeder started, most of in which damn near everybody rags his ass, I get ragged. > > mea culpa, but if a regular Reeder basher would have posted the response I did, they would be applauded. > > Ok, I will stick to inane bullshit then. No big deal. No, they wouldn’t have. _You_ stepped out of line. I seriously recommend you step away from the computer until you have a sincere apology to make. And while you’re at it, would you mind showing me where “preemptive strike” is an acceptable debating tactic? Is it when you insult someone and then justify it by claiming that it was an ad hominem and a strawman rolled into one? I’m fuzzy on the logic behind that method. And on preview: **spooje** , it may be reasonable to expect **Reeder** to start bashing Bush in this thread, but I think that it is also reasonable to wait until a man commits a crime to convict him for it and it is inexcusable to not do so. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Yep. I’m not sure it’s fair to even draw a distinction. People on a modern battlefield are in a very high threat environment. Friendly fire is an unavoidable cost of war - it has been in every war. **If anything it’s gotten worse** because the use of precision weaponry means that the U.S. is dropping bombs and firing gatling guns in much closer proximity to friendly troops. Bolding mine. Actually according to a [Washington Post article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A444-2004May29.html) on Tillman’s death it’s gotten better, although it doesn’t give us all the stats on the drop. > [@](#): > > Millett said modern-day friendly-fire incidents are statistically low, especially compared with previous wars. U.S. forces in World War II had about 40,000 friendly-fire deaths, or about 10 percent of total losses. I don’t care how Tillman died. The fact that he gave up so much just to serve his country says to me he would’ve died a hero even if he had lived to be a hundred. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/27 "2004-05-30T09:53:38Z")
> [@Asylum](#): > > And while you’re at it, would you mind showing me where “preemptive strike” is an acceptable debating tactic? I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting, I’m still waiting for someone to show me where it’s an acceptable reason to start a war. 😉 /sarcastic semi-hijack off ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/28 "2004-05-30T11:53:58Z")
It is because of Bush. His stupid policies allowed for the military unit Tilman was in to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. His war on terrorism also sucks. Oh… ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/29 "2004-05-30T13:54:31Z")
Before we get too carried away with out private vendettas, let us remember on this of all days that Pat Tilman is the representative and symbol of all the young men and women who have died in national service in the last year or so, whether that service was in Afghanistan (where our military presence is in my judgment entirely proper) or Iraq (where in my judgment it is not) or in a training accident at some State-side base. That his death may have been from so-called Friendly Fire ought to be no surprise. If you will speak to anyone who has been in combat, you will find out that in the few moments that many fire fights take the level of noise, excitement, confusion, shock and anxiety are so high that it is only remarkable that there are not more accidental deaths. The only thing that prevents such incidents is discipline (in the sense of training to anticipate and cope with the noise, confusion, shock and anxiety). In the event however there is never time to think. This sort of thing is inevitable. It does not take much of a miscalculation to cause real trouble. One of the better known incidents in Vietnam was the result of the failure by an artillery unit to consider the height of trees on a ridge line when lobbing shells into the valley beyond. None of that however detracts from Tilman’s sacrifice or the sacrifice of all the others whom we have lost forever. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/30 "2004-05-31T06:49:05Z")
> [@Asylum](#): > > I don’t care how Tillman died. The fact that he gave up so much just to serve his country says to me he would’ve died a hero even if he had lived to be a hundred. Out of everything I’ve heard, read, or seen regarding Tillman’s death, I think that line is by far the most appropriate. Respect. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/31 "2004-05-31T09:59:06Z")
The most recent NY Times story ([over here](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/national/30TILL.html)) says _Corporal Tillman, who died on April 22, “probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces,” the Army said in a statement. An investigation made no specific finding of fault in the incident, the statement said._ ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/32 "2004-05-31T15:49:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The most recent NY Times story ([over here](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/national/30TILL.html)) says _Corporal Tillman, who died on April 22, “probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces,” the Army said in a statement. An investigation made no specific finding of fault in the incident, the statement said._ Man, a combat soldier must feel such remorse over these types of incidents. Although they did not find a specific fault, there are some people in tremendous pain right now. So very tragic. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668/33 "2004-05-31T23:57:21Z")
Jeeez, I don’t think what **Klaatu** requires an apology, and I don’t think he needs to be raked over the coals for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tilman-killed-by-friendly-fire/247668.md?page=1)