# Tim Burton films **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990 "2010-08-21T19:39:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/1 "2010-08-21T19:39:04Z")
Prompted by this post: > [@Popular/acclaimed movies you've never seen](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/popular-acclaimed-movies-youve-never-seen/550983/11): > > Although I generally love Tim Burton movies, I have never seen _Edward Scissorhands_. I was nineteen when it came out, and all the teen girls fawning over Johnny Depp put me off. I liked _Edward Scissorhands_. But I liked the first half better than the second half. The fish-out-of-water-adapting-to-a-new-environment was fun, as were the stereotypical Suburbanites (I grew up in the '70s, so I know!). The Robbery, the Relationship… meh. They were OK, but I enjoyed them less than the earlier parts. Come to think of it, I think _Mars Attacks_ petered out a bit, too. _Vincent_ was brilliant, and so was _Frankenweenie_. I still like _Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure_ (and it shows Santa Monica’s 3rd Street during its transitional stage). _Beetlejuice_ is a favourite. I saw _Batman_ at its L.A. premiere, and still have the free stuff they gave away. I liked it, but I’m not really a huge _Batman_ fan and haven’t seen any of the sequels. I liked _The Nightmare Before Christmas_, but I didn’t know it was a musical when I went to see it. Some of those songs still come to mind at Halloween and Christmas. _Ed Wood_: Brilliant. _James and the Giant Peach_ was worth a look, but not really for me. _Sleepy Hollow_ didn’t quite put me to sleep. _Planet Of The Apes_ was a big disappointment. _Big Fish_ is sweet, and a little sad since I’d lost my dad a few years before it came out. _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ was… interesting. Johnny Depp’s Michael-Jackson-as-Willy-Wonka was too topical to be enduring, and I wish they’d had more than one actor for the Oompa Loompas. _Corpse Bride_ had its moments. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/2 "2010-08-21T20:47:50Z")
I think the hassle over Batman Returns did something to him. He’s made some decent films since then, but his first few movies are really the Tim Burton opus. Everything after that is him either cashing a check, recycling an idea from when he was younger, or trying to live up to the Burton TM style. Big Fish is probably his best movie after that point, in terms of creating something that wasn’t a complete rip-off of himself. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/3 "2010-08-21T21:02:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Big Fish is probably his best movie after that point, in terms of creating something that wasn’t a complete rip-off of himself. Agreed. I think it actually might be my favorite of his 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/4 "2010-08-22T00:57:17Z")
**Sage Rat** pretty much nailed my opinion of the guy. I really loved Edward Scissorhands because I thought it was an original take on the whole “suburbia doesn’t like anything different” theme. The visual style is awesome when you first see it, but by the time you’ve seen Sleepy Hollow, Sweeney Todd, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and then Alice in Wonderland, it just stops being interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Jihi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jihi/32/17768_2.png) [@Jihi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jihi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/5 "2010-08-22T01:50:40Z")
I like Burton, but I I have to agree that **Sage Rat** nailed it in one. With the exception of Big Fish he hasn’t been terribly relevant since the early 90’s. I don’t think he was prepared for the criticism that Batman Returns met and he’s more or less become a parody of himself in the “Hollywood Spotlight” since that time. It’s like he’s afraid to take chances. He needs to branch out a little and do stuff that’s a little more grounded than _Planet of the Apes_ or _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_, but infuse his own sensibilities like he did with _Fish_. Oddly enough, I actually like the Batman mythos and I personally thought he did a good job with the original movie and went way over the top with the sequel. His ideas are good, he just needs to dial it back a bit. ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/6 "2010-08-22T07:16:16Z")
If you want to see the first movie made in the Tim Burton style, check out [The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari](http://www.google.com/images?q=Cabinet%20of%20Dr.%20Caligari) from 1920. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/7 "2010-08-22T07:18:27Z")
I love _Big Fish_ so much. It’s in my list of top 10 favorite movies ever. I have given that movie to at least 30 people. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/8 "2010-08-22T09:07:09Z")
I think what ruined _Batman Returns_ for me was the fact that every car on the street, except for the Batmobile and Bruce Wayne’s limo, were the same model of car. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/9 "2010-08-22T17:21:15Z")
Well it may be that what set him up was Batman. IMHO one of the most over rated movies ever. He makes that. He makes Edward, then he makes Batman Returns. The honeymoon is over. If you take the Batman films out of the list, (directed by) it goes like this. Beetle Juice Edward Scissorhands Ed Wood Mars Attacks Sleepy Hollow Planet of the Apes Big Fish Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Corpse Bride Sweeney Todd Alice in Wonderland That’s a very good career for a director spanning 22 years. It’s the huge fall from grace of Batman Returns falling from Batman. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/10 "2010-08-22T21:34:39Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Well it may be that what set him up was Batman. IMHO one of the most over rated movies ever. > > He makes that. He makes Edward, then he makes Batman Returns. The honeymoon is over. > > If you take the Batman films out of the list, (directed by) it goes like this. > > Beetle Juice > Edward Scissorhands > Ed Wood > Mars Attacks > Sleepy Hollow > Planet of the Apes > Big Fish > Charlie and the Chocolate Factory > Corpse Bride > Sweeney Todd > Alice in Wonderland > That’s a very good career for a director spanning 22 years. It’s the huge fall from grace of Batman Returns falling from Batman. This is just my opinion but I think Burton is a director who follows the “do one for them and then do one for you” rule. If you look over the above list of movies, I think you can almost neatly divide them into “for them” and “for me” columns. In the former column goes the **Batman** movies, **Planet of the Apes, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory** , and\*\* Alice in Wonderland\*\*. The latter column features **Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, Mars Attacks, Big Fish, Corpse Bride** , and (although this might be disputed) **Sweeney Todd**. I think his movies in the “for me” column are generally better than ones in the “for them” column (with the big exception of **Mars Attacks** ) although they made a lot less money than the “for them” films. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/11 "2010-08-22T22:14:39Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > He makes that. He makes Edward, then he makes Batman Returns. The honeymoon is over. Folks in this thread keep mentioning this in passing, but I’m not sure exactly what everyone is referring to. What’s the story, here? I thought BATMAN RETURNS was a well-reviewed film that made a ton of money, with the general consensus being that it wasn’t as good as the original; a quick look over at Rotten Tomatoes turns up Roger Ebert giving one of the few negative reviews, but even he stresses that RETURNS is (a) not a bad movie by any stretch, but rather one that’s (b) intriguing and creative and fun to talk about and great to look at, inhabited by interesting characters, never boring, et cetera, et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/12 "2010-08-22T23:17:52Z")
Are you people _insane_? Apart from Jack Nicholson’s (overrated) performance as the Joker and the Prince soundtrack (which is certainly not prime Prince material, and I say that as a huge fan), **Batman** doesn’t have all that much going for it. To me it’s always seemed like Burton was desperately trying to find his place within the confines of a big Hollywood tent pole film, and not having much luck in doing so. **Batman Returns** , on the other hand? It’s pretty much a Tim Burton Movie through and through, and only nominally a Batman flick. Which, of course, makes it a better picture than the original, hands down. As for Burton’s best? Well, that’d be either **Ed Wood** , **Beetlejuice** , or **Pee-wee’s Big Adventure**. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/13 "2010-08-23T01:15:14Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > As for Burton’s best? Well, that’d be either **Ed Wood** , **Beetlejuice** , or **Pee-wee’s Big Adventure**. **Ed Wood** IMHO. A near-perfect film and the pinnacle of Burton’s, Depp’s AND Martin Landau’s career to date. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/14 "2010-08-23T01:28:36Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > I like Burton, but I I have to agree that **Sage Rat** nailed it in one. With the exception of Big Fish he hasn’t been terribly relevant since the early 90’s. He’s certainly made good money this decade, anyways. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Sweeny Todd both made several times their initial investment back, and somewhat incredibly, Alice and Wonderland is the fifth highest grossing film of all time (not adjusted for inflation I know, but still) ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/15 "2010-08-23T02:00:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > _James and the Giant Peach_ was worth a look, but not really for me. I wouldn’t classify _James and the Giant Peach_ as a Tim Burton movie. Burton was a producer on the film but it was directed by Henry Selick, who also directed _The Nightmare Before Christmas_. _TNBC_ was based on a story and characters written and designed by Burton, but _JatGP_ was, of course, a Roald Dahl story. I really like most of Burton’s movies, the exceptions being \*Planet of the Apes \*and _Alice in Wonderland_. \*Mars Attacks \*isn’t a favorite, but it is a pretty fun parody/tribute to the old 50’s sci-fi movies. And while I didn’t like Depp’s portrayal of Wonka, I think most of the other apsects of _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ hew pretty close to the book, for which I was grateful. My favorites would be\* Edward Scissorhands\*, _Beetlejuice_, and _The Nightmare Before Christmas_. ---
**Author:** ![Short\_Guy\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@Short\_Guy\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Short_Guy_1)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/16 "2010-08-23T12:27:35Z")
Can someone explain all the Batman Returns references in this thread? Batman Returns is probably my favourite superhero film ever. I know it’s become fashionable to diss on Burton after Nolan’s “grittier” Batman films, but wasn’t Batman Returns both a commercial success and a much more “personal” film for Burton? (i.e. he had more creative control?) edit: so basically, what **the other Waldo Pepper** said. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/17 "2010-08-23T13:29:46Z")
> [@Short\_Guy](#): > > Can someone explain all the Batman Returns references in this thread? Batman Returns is probably my favourite superhero film ever. I know it’s become fashionable to diss on Burton after Nolan’s “grittier” Batman films, but wasn’t Batman Returns both a commercial success and a much more “personal” film for Burton? (i.e. he had more creative control?) > > edit: so basically, what **the other Waldo Pepper** said. I wasn’t ragging on it, at least. At the time Tim Burton made Batman Returns, his marriage was falling apart (which was stressful), he was helming the follow-up to an insanely large franchise (which was stressful) and I think having problems with the studio wanting him to keep it fairly close to the style of Batman 1, where he wanted to do something new and interesting (which was stressful), just to have the movie come out and have tons of people complain that it was too dark, too mystical, too gross, or whatever else (which was stressful). From an interview I read with him when he was making Mars Attacks, I got the impression that he’d largely had a meltdown or emotional breakdown or something that he’d been slogging through for the previous 4-5 years – only to be finally relieved when he met Lisa Marie. Certainly, though, he’s never made another movie since that time that quite had the magic that I’d expect. But as regards Batman Returns, personally I like it quite well. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/18 "2010-08-23T13:51:09Z")
I’ve never seen a Burton I didn’t like. Yes, as per the standard complaint, he has a distinct style he doesn’t much stray from. It just so happens to be a style I like a lot. Also I really, really like Helena B-C, so his constant use of her nowadays doesn’t put me off the way it seems to do for a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/19 "2010-08-23T14:40:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve never seen a Burton I didn’t like. Yes, as per the standard complaint, he has a distinct style he doesn’t much stray from. It just so happens to be a style I like a lot. Also I really, really like Helena B-C, so his constant use of her nowadays doesn’t put me off the way it seems to do for a lot of people. Planet of the Apes was terrible, but other then that I don’t think I’ve flat out didn’t like any of his other films. Some were better then others, but I agree that with the one exception even his lesser films are a decent way to spend two hours. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990/20 "2010-08-23T18:54:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Planet of the Apes was terrible, _De gustibus_. It was certainly miles better than the original for me, chiefly by _not_ having Charlton Heston or 70s styling in it, plus I liked the costuming a lot, especially the armour. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-burton-films/550990.md?page=2)