# Tim, Susan, I agree you have the right to free speech... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772 "2003-04-10T13:15:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![oceans\_11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@oceans\_11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oceans_11)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/21 "2003-04-10T18:03:18Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a direct consequence of HoF President (and former Reagan assistant press secretary) Dale Petroskey’s actions. You’re correct. The cancellation of the festival was the direct consequence of HoF Prez’s decision. I should have said "rational or not, the HoF Prez’s decision to cancel the festival is a direct consequence of Tim and Susan’s protests. " Which shouldn’t have surprised the couple. > [@](#): > > Unless one had a prior familiarity with Petroskey’s politics, maybe. As political as they are, they weren’t aware of who was organizing a festival in which they would be featured? > [@](#): > > Whining seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Given that this action was aimed at Robbins and Sarandon, it’s perfectly reasonable that they comment on the absurdity of it. Robbins has done so. A simple “I’m sorry our disagreement on politics has influenced your decision, but we stand by our principles” would have been classier. Considering how important they it is to them, they would have held the “moral high ground”. Instead, they decided to respond with more political hacks. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/22 "2003-04-10T18:04:32Z")
From the article: > [@](#): > > \*\*In his letter, Robbins said he’d been looking forward to “a weekend away from politics and war.” He said he remained “skeptical” of the war plans and told Petroskey he did not realize baseball was “a Republican sport.” > > “I am sorry that you have chosen to use baseball and your position at the Hall of Fame to make a political statement,” Robbins wrote. "I know there are many baseball fans that disagree with you, and even more that will react with disgust to realize baseball is being politicized. > > "To suggest that my criticism of the President put the troops in danger is absurd. … I wish you had, in your letter, saved me the rhetoric and talked honestly about your ties to the Bush and Reagan administrations. > > “You invoke patriotism and use words like ‘freedom’ in an attempt to intimidate and bully. In doing so, you dishonor the words ‘patriotism’ and ‘freedom’ and dishonor the men and women who have fought wars to keep this nation a place where one can freely express their opinions without fear of reprisal or punishment.” > > Robbins signed his letter with a reference to an old World Series champion. > > “Long live democracy, free speech and the '69 Mets – all improbable, glorious miracles that I have always believed in,” he wrote.\*\* I’d say Robbins is spot-on in his criticism of Petroskey, and more, well within his rights and his nature to respond in this way. Particularly Petroskey’s use of words like “patriotism” and “freedom,” and the comment about baseball being a “Republican sport.” Good on Robbins for responding in this fashion. Further, I find it funny that Petroskey would say this: > [@](#): > > **Public figures, such as you, have platforms much larger than the average American’s, which provides you an extraordinary opportunity to have your views heard – and an equally large obligation to act and speak responsibly.** …when he is engaging in the same sort of public display that he criticizes Robbins and Sarandon for. I guess he thinks he’s being more “responsible” in his actions. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/23 "2003-04-10T18:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oceans\_11 \* > \*\*Considering how important they it is to them, they would have held the “moral high ground”. Instead, they decided to respond with more political hacks. \*\* Stop yer whining. Petrofsky was an ass, Robbins called him on it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/24 "2003-04-10T19:11:41Z")
I don’t know why everyone has to get their knickers in a twist when actors state their beliefs. THEY’RE AMERICANS! We all have the right. I’m sure little old you-and-me would state our opinions if we had the chance to do it in a larger forum. The fact that they are actors does not make them less of a citizen. Bravo to Tim and Susan! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/25 "2003-04-10T20:12:46Z")
Maybe we should pass a law that anyone who’s famous for any other reason than politics, has no right to use their celebrity as a platform for voicing political views, running for office, etc. Let’s gag the Hollywood celebs, the sports stars, the business bigwigs, the rock stars - shut 'em all up. 😉 **oceans\_11** : > [@](#): > > Which shouldn’t have surprised the couple. Why should it not have surprised them? What did they say that was so over the line? > [@](#): > > As political as they are, they weren’t aware of who was organizing a festival in which they would be featured? Maybe they weren’t thinking of this event in terms of politics, until Petroskey got his patriotic panties in a wad. > [@](#): > > A simple “I’m sorry our disagreement on politics has influenced your decision, but we stand by our principles” would have been classier. It would have been. But after two years of watching the Dems roll over and play dead, it’s refreshing to see one come out swinging for once. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/26 "2003-04-10T20:20:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\* > As there is more than a trivial institutional connection between the HoF and MLB, some of this naturally rubs off on MLB, which is in turn free to criticize the HoF and the former Reaganista running it, or not, as they see fit. \*\* Irrelevant. If a celebrity wants to use that status as a pulpit from which to bully the public, then said celebrity deserves whatever legal consequences exist for so doing. Tell me, do you think daring to disagree with Timmiepoo and Susiepoo should be punished by lifelong imprisonment or execution? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/27 "2003-04-10T20:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > What does a movie about baseball made 15 years ago have to do with anybody’s specific politics _now_? \<\< stands up and applauds \>\> I see Tim and Susan as being in the same position as a couple of high school kids who protested _somethingorother_ (doesn’t matter what, but you know the kind of thing I’m talking about) and then found to their dismay that they were being banned from the Prom because of it. That wasn’t fair, and neither is this. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/28 "2003-04-10T20:48:53Z")
And may I say that IMO Zev’s “minor nitpick” was not a “minor” nitpick at all, but in fact a particularly pertinent one. From the OP: > [@](#): > > Major League Baseball has simply decided that you and your pseudo-wife do not represent the majority of their fan base and that you are in fact, offensive to most. In fact, MLB has decided no such thing. The Baseball Hall of Fame, a completely separate and independent non-profit organization, has decided that Tim and Susan are interfering with their self-appointed educational and cultural significance mandate. Bad example for the little nippers and all that. MLB, being about things like Entertainment, and Sport, and having no Culturally Significant or Educational axes to grind, probably couldn’t care less what a couple of Hollywood actors who once made a baseball movie think about Iraq. Now here’s a minor nitpick: I object to the use of the smarmy and judgmental term “pseudo-wife”. What’s up with that, eh? Can’t call her “partner” like the article, or “girlfriend”? “SO”? ---
**Author:** ![oceans\_11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b2d939/32.png) [@oceans\_11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oceans_11)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/29 "2003-04-10T21:04:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe we should pass a law that anyone who’s famous for any other reason than politics, has no right to use their celebrity as a platform for voicing political views, running for office, etc. Let’s gag the Hollywood celebs, the sports stars, the business bigwigs, the rock stars - shut 'em all up. 😉 Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/30 "2003-04-10T21:32:30Z")
You know who the REAL loser is in all of this? Kevin Costner. He needs the per diem that came with the trip! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/31 "2003-04-10T21:45:43Z")
The Powers That Be are running scared. It always worked before, always. Start banging the drum, start bloviating about supporting our troops while dabbing your eye with a redwhitenblue hanky…bango! dissent drops off the map, the opposition falls apart trying to not be unpatriotic. Patriotism isn’t the last refuge of a scoundrel, its usually the first. We are a very emotional people, we Americans. We _want_ to be patriotic. We dont much like unpopular opinions anyway, but if they happen to be unpatriotic as well… This time, it didn’t work _quite_ as well. It worked, but not like it has in the past. In the past all that was left was a hard core minority to protest, and they could be sneered at with a couple of old Bob Hope jokes about haircuts and jobs. But not this time. This time a major protest movement was afoot _before_ the war even got started. And that may be the only hopeful spark out of all of this, the cherry on the turd sundae. Crapping of Tim and Susan is just more of the same tired old routine. Our enemies grow older, and haven’t got any smarter. The future is ours. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/32 "2003-04-10T22:02:31Z")
Wait, so Robbins and Sarandon can expect criticism for making political statements, but Petrowsky can make a political statement (cancelling the festival because of Sarandon and Robbins) and not be criticized? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/33 "2003-04-10T22:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Really minor nitpick: > > The BaseBall Hall of Fame is not a part of Organized Baseball. Sarandon and Robbins are being dissed by the Hall, but not by baseball. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* Really? So the Hall could admit Rose and Jackson if they wanted to, even if the two are never unbanned from baseball? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/34 "2003-04-10T22:07:19Z")
I say we pass a law prohibiting political commentary by celebrities. Like Rush Limbaugh, for example. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/35 "2003-04-10T22:11:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by asterion \* > \*\*Really? So the Hall could admit Rose and Jackson if they wanted to, even if the two are never unbanned from baseball? \*\* Not to get this thread off the topic of Robbins and Sarandon, but, yes… the HoF defines its own rules. Until 1992, there was no rule that said that Jackson couldn’t be elected. However, no Veteran’s Committee member ever voted for him. If the Hall wanted to enshrine them tomorrow, there isn’t a thing that MLB could do about it. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/36 "2003-04-11T00:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \<\< stands up and applauds \>\> > > I see Tim and Susan as being in the same position as a couple of high school kids who protested _somethingorother_ (doesn’t matter what, but you know the kind of thing I’m talking about) and then found to their dismay that they were being banned from the Prom because of it. That wasn’t fair, and neither is this. Fair? FAIR! Are you crazy? This is absolutely fair, in every sense of the word. Contrary to public opinion, the First Amendment protects speech from _government_ restriction, period. I’m sure you know that, too. If Timmie and Susie want to partake of public discourse, they can jolly well accept that those private individuals and organizations with differing viewpoints will always have the right to decide whether to support them, implicitly or explicitly, by offering platforms for the psuedo-spouses. It’s the free market, baby. Vote with your pocketbook. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/37 "2003-04-11T01:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh yes, I do know how celebrities like to make brash statements and then quickly retract them later… like all those people who vowed to move overseas if George W. Bush were elected… as far as I know not a single one did. I believe JFKs press secretary moved to France, but as far as I know that’s the only notable person that followed through on their threat to leave. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/38 "2003-04-11T01:10:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > If a celebrity wants to use that status as a pulpit from which to bully the public, then said celebrity deserves whatever legal consequences exist for so doing. That’s fair enough. Of course, I suspect you have no idea what you just said. 😃 > [@](#): > > Tell me, do you think daring to disagree with Timmiepoo and Susiepoo should be punished by lifelong imprisonment or execution? Wow. ‘Daring to disagree.’ ‘Lifelong imprisonment or execution’. I am devastated by your razor-sharp logic and wit, and must concede the argument. :D:D:D ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/39 "2003-04-11T01:18:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > Fair? FAIR! Are you crazy? This is absolutely fair, in every sense of the word. Contrary to public opinion, the First Amendment protects speech from _government_ restriction, period. I’m sure you know that, too. No, no, no. ‘Constitutional’ is the term you’re looking for. You’re saying it’s _constitutional_ for the HoF to respond to Robbins’ and Sarandon’s speech in whatever manner they want, since the First Amendment only guards against government restriction of speech, as you’ve correctly pointed out. However, ‘fair’ is a term that applies to governmental and private actions alike. Whether it applies here or not, I’ll not judge. But it can’t be said not to apply, simply because the HoF is a private entity. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772/40 "2003-04-11T02:54:32Z")
No, it isn’t fair, because the three things aren’t connected at all. A movie about baseball that they made 15 years ago, a party to celebrate the 15th anniversary of that movie, and politics. The movie wasn’t about politics. The party wasn’t going to be about politics. The National Baseball Hall of Fame has nothing to do with politics. The whole thing was all about baseball, not politics. Politics didn’t have a single friggin’ thing to do with any of it–until Dan Petrowsky decided that politics ought to have something to do with it. Dan Petrowsky is imposing his personal political agenda on something that was completely politics-free. That’s why it’s not fair. It’s not fair the same way it’s not fair that when students protest, they’re sometimes banned from the prom. > **[Juvenile Justice](https://www.aclu.org/issues/juvenile-justice?ID=10354&c=159&redirect=cfmredirect%2FStudentsRights)** > > After decades of punitive “tough-on-crime” responses to youth crime and misbehavior, there has been a perceptible shift in recent years surrounding juvenile justice issues in the United States. Policymakers are slowly returning to the first... > [@](#): > > BOSTON–Facing a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, officials from Holliston High School today agreed to end the punishment imposed on Amanda Melanson, a high school senior who displayed a protest sign during the school’s annual talent show. Protesting something and attending the prom are two completely unrelated things. The idea is supposed to be “make the punishment fit the crime”. To punish her, she should have been banned from all future talent shows, not proms. Or how about this? > **[Privacy & Technology](https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology?ID=11349&c=60&redirect=cfmredirect%2FCyber-Liberties)** > > “The fact that technology now allows an individual to carry such information in his hand does not make the information any less worthy of the protection for which the Founders fought.”—U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts in Riley v.... > [@](#): > > PITTSBURGH - A local school district has agreed to pay $60,000 in partial settlement of lawsuit brought by a former student who was kicked off the volleyball team because he posted an Internet message criticizing an art teacher, the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania announced today. His opinion of his art teacher had nothing to do with playing volleyball. And Tim and Susan’s opinions had nothing to do with a movie about baseball. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tim-susan-i-agree-you-have-the-right-to-free-speech/167772.md?page=3)