# Time change compromise: permanent half hour forward **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621 "2023-11-05T08:10:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/61 "2023-11-06T23:25:15Z")
But we did figure out the DH rule…. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/62 "2023-11-06T23:32:21Z")
And an utter abomination it is. The People’s Judean Front hates the DH rule!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2023, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/63 "2023-11-06T23:36:17Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But we did figure out the DH rule…. I disagree! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Yelnick\_McWawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/839c29/32.png) [@Yelnick\_McWawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yelnick_McWawa)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/64 "2023-11-07T22:09:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So here in Indiana over the course of a year we have FOUR time zones to deal with: Standard Central, Daylight Savings Central, Standard Eastern, and Daylight Savings Eastern. Because… reasons? See the Wikipedia article “Time in Indiana” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/65 "2023-11-07T22:18:33Z")
Yeah, I know - it’s complicated. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/66 "2024-10-31T20:34:31Z")
Bumping a thread I made last year. For those who don’t want to read the OP, I proposed we go to a permanent compromise time half an hour between Standard and Daylight time. It seems I’m not the only one with this idea. There was a opinion piece in today’s paper (actually in many papers, according to Google) making the same proposal. It was by Sheldon H. Jacobson, who I find is a Computer Science professor at U of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. Here’s a video he posted to YouTube last spring (I have not viewed this video yet). > **[Professor Sheldon H. Jacobson - Stopping The Biannual Time Change](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NEBF1NBPwU%2F)** > > Twice a year most of us reset our clocks, meanwhile the debate over why we still have to do this rages on. Sheldon H. Jacobson, a professor of computer scien... ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/67 "2024-10-31T23:37:00Z")
Yeah, my father told me that when he went from Philly to Media, PA, the time changed by 3 minutes. Great. Railroad schedules were a nightmare. In fact he called standard time zones railroad time. I know that in 6 weeks the sun will be setting at 4:10 in Montreal and I hate it. So I would go for permanent DST. I will be staying on DST at least till Tuesday so I can stay up later for election night coverage. But I am retired so I can do that. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/68 "2024-11-01T00:10:11Z")
I don’t know—if one wants to bring computer science into it, I expect a solution of some complicated optimization problem with lots of parameters and constraints and Voronoi diagrams and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/69 "2024-11-01T00:12:38Z")
As noted by others, time zones were created because of the need for railways and their robber barons to coordinate scheduling, not least because there was little double tracking and trains needed to keep to very tight, precise schedules so the eastbound freight would pull onto the siding to avoid running into the westbound express. Well, who the heck cares about trains now? I say let’s revert back to local time everywhere. When the sun is directly overhead, it’s noon and you can set your pocket watch to the town clock. Don’t like the time? Move! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/70 "2024-11-01T00:15:36Z")
Really, I don’t care about the _official_ time; I just care that it stops being jerked back and forth disrupting my sleep schedule. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/71 "2024-11-01T00:18:16Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I know that in 6 weeks the sun will be setting at 4:10 in Montreal and I hate it. So I would go for permanent DST. The tradeoff, of course, is a later sunrise. On December 15th, when the sunrise in Montreal is at 4:11pm, sunrise is at 7:27am. To get the 5:11pm sunset, you also get a sunrise which doesn’t occur until 8:27am. > **[Sunrise and sunset times in Montréal, December 2024](https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/canada/montreal?month=12&year=2024)** > > Calculations of sunrise and sunset in Montréal – Quebec – Canada for December 2024. Generic astronomy calculator to calculate times for sunrise, sunset, moonrise, moonset for many cities, with daylight saving time and time zones taken in account. The U.S. briefly went to year-round DST in the mid '70s, with the idea that it would help to conserve energy (by having daylight extend further into the early evening). But, one of the biggest complaints by Americans about it, particularly those in northern states, was the later sunrises, and “sending our kids to school in the dark!” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/72 "2024-11-01T01:42:20Z")
Obviously I know that, which is why I mentioned I am retired. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/73 "2024-11-01T01:45:35Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Well, who the heck cares about trains now? I assume you enjoy being able to go to the store and buy stuff, right? > **[Rail transportation in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transportation_in_the_United_States#Freight_railroads)** > > Rail transportation in the United States consists primarily of freight shipments along a well integrated network of standard gauge private freight railroads that also extend into Canada and Mexico. The United States has the largest rail transport network of any country in the world, about 160,000 miles (260,000 km). > Passenger service is a mass transit option for Americans with commuter rail in most major American cities, especially on the East Coast. Intercity passenger service was once a lar... Frankly, I don’t understand why people freak out about DST twice a year as if they’d never encountered it before. I haven’t even had to change a clock in years - all my devices update automatically in the middle of the night. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/74 "2024-11-01T03:02:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I haven’t even had to change a clock in years - all my devices update automatically in the middle of the night. All of my devices update on their own but I have to manually change my car clock, microwave, stove and assorted alarm clock/radios in the house. And my wrist watch. Not a big deal but it doesn’t happen automatically for me. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/75 "2024-11-01T12:38:18Z")
It’s not the changing of the time devices, it’s the disruption to sleep patterns and light, as Hari Seldon noted, though as an early riser, I’m on the opposite side of Hari. The shifts cause accidents as people stumble through the changes and generally increase discombobulation and grumpiness. This has, in my entirely speculative and unresearched opinion, entirely negative effects on US elections as well. I have absolutely no opinion on the DH rule, which probably makes me a splitter. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/76 "2024-11-01T13:19:06Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > This thread reminds me of the observation that “It is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.” While I fully endorse the plans to shift the rotational axis of the planet, hollow out the earth, and move the population of the US south, I cannot help but note that work is part of the reason we have to get up. Let’s think a little about reducing work while we shift the axis! The work that keeps society functional has to get done if we want to keep a similar standard of living. Capitalism differs from other systems in _how it motivates people to work_ - by paying people for their labor, which they want to do because they need that money to buy anything in said capitalist system. Under a Communist system, you still have to work; it’s just that instead of “work more so you make more money and can buy more stuff”, Communism in the ideal uses social pressure (“Work more so your community doesn’t view you as a lazy leech”) or threat of force (“Work, comrade - it’s this, or the Gulag”). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/77 "2024-11-01T13:25:16Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > I will note that in 1930, John Maynard Keynes thought it would be possible to have a great standard of living AND a 15-hour work week, given increases in productivity and compound interest. Presumably, we could also figure out what to do about daylight saving time if we had a little more leisure time. Sure, we work more than Keynes may have envisioned; our standard of living is also much higher than he could have foreseen in 1930. Don’t forget that in Keynes’ day, there were no computers, no Internet. Massive new industries sprang up where they didn’t exist at all before. And while you might complain about the 40 hour workweek, at least we don’t have 996 firms (9 to 9 6 days a week, or 72 hour work weeks - commonly practiced in China, illegally I might add). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/78 "2024-11-01T13:31:06Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > As noted by others, time zones were created because of the need for railways and their robber barons to coordinate scheduling, not least because there was little double tracking and trains needed to keep to very tight, precise schedules so the eastbound freight would pull onto the siding to avoid running into the westbound express. > > Well, who the heck cares about trains now? I say let’s revert back to local time everywhere. When the sun is directly overhead, it’s noon and you can set your pocket watch to the town clock. Don’t like the time? Move! Time zones were created for trains because trains were the first time you could move across the land quickly enough for time zones to matter. If it takes a whole day to get between two cities, each of which keeps time slightly differently, that doesn’t matter. No one from one city is ever going to schedule a meeting with someone from another city with timing so precise that it matters whether the two cities are 8 minutes off from one another. When you finish your gruelling journey, you’ll get to the new city in eight or so hours and find out what time it is. Once trains came into play, that changed. But that change didn’t stop there. We now have cars, that can (depending on traffic and the type of train used) get from city to city even faster. We now have airplanes, and of course, the internet. I routinely schedule meetings with people from as far away as India or China. Time zones are here to stay. At least until enough people are living in underground megacities or in space and we stop keeping time based on the sun altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/79 "2024-11-01T13:33:39Z")
Um, whoosh, folks, re the train issue. As for the defences of capitalism offered here, I’m going to agree to disagree and ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/80 "2024-11-01T13:55:27Z")
Just switch the whole world to [UTC (universal time)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time) and actually use it always. We’ve already shown we don’t care about clock time matching solar time by having wide time zones and daylight savings. Rip off the bandage and use a single time worldwide. If you have a reason to know when local solar noon is you’ll figure it out just like you figure out local sunrise or sunset. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621.md?page=5)