# Time change compromise: permanent half hour forward **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 5, 2023, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621 "2023-11-05T08:10:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_the_turtle/32/2926_2.png) [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_the_Turtle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/81 "2024-11-01T14:39:26Z")
Well, this is a distinction without a difference. Instead of (currently) figuring the local time and assuming most people work 0800 - 1700 (ish), you have to figure out the local sunrise/sunset times in whatever location you need to interact with and guess their work hours. Unless you are proposing all people work the same hours regardless of sunrise/sunset (ie if your local sunset is 0400, you still work 0800 - 1700) - good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/82 "2024-11-01T14:46:21Z")
> [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](#): > > Instead of (currently) figuring the local time and assuming most people work 0800 - 1700 (ish), you have to figure out the local sunrise/sunset times in whatever location you need to interact with and guess their work hours. It’s no change at all. Businesses and people already post their work hours with the rest of their contact info. Having work hours in UTC means you don’t have to do any conversions or guessing time zones. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/83 "2024-11-01T14:52:02Z")
> [@Fear\_the\_Turtle](#): > > and assuming most people work 0800 - 1700 (ish), you have to figure out the local sunrise/sunset times in whatever location you need to interact with and guess their work hours. Most businesses I am familiar with do have their business hours posted. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/84 "2024-11-01T17:05:08Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > But, one of the biggest complaints by Americans about it, particularly those in northern states, was the later sunrises, and “sending our kids to school in the dark!” Okay, so why does no one propose the obvious solution? Stop having kids! In just twelve years or so, no more kids, just those obnoxious teenagers, and they’re spry, they can dodge around cars at the last second if need be. And then in roughly four more years we’re completely done with the need for grade/junior high/high schools. A problem? Not so! We convert them all to elderly housing complexes. Everything will be hunky dory then, right? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/85 "2024-11-01T22:03:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I haven’t even had to change a clock in years - all my devices update automatically in the middle of the night. I haven’t changed my clock in _decades_ - my VCR is on permanent _blinking_ midnight! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/86 "2024-11-01T22:14:50Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > It’s not the changing of the time devices, it’s the disruption to sleep patterns and light, as Hari Seldon noted, though as an early riser, I’m on the opposite side of Hari. Tens of millions of us already deal with that every single day of the year. It’s called shift work. People who have the privilege of working 9 to 5 Monday to Friday year-round ought to appreciate what they have and stop acting like going to bed an hour early once a year is some impossible burden, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/87 "2024-11-01T22:59:23Z")
That is not the problem with the time changes twice a year. The dislocation leads to all kinds of real problems. Of course people who work shifts suffer these problems regularly and constantly and to a much greater degree. That it is much worse for them doesn’t mean we should ignore the problems inflicted on others, does it? Should you stop complaining about your job because some people have a worse job or are unemployed? Of course not. When you go on strike to improve your work conditions, let me know and I will contribute to the strike fund. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/88 "2024-11-02T01:24:52Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > my VCR is on permanent _blinking_ midnight! Are you sure that’s not permanent blinking noontime? 😉 🤪 ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/89 "2024-11-02T04:44:36Z")
So one day a year you go to bed an hour earlier and one day a year you go to bed an hour later. Wow. Such hardship. I have no idea why people on this board make such a big deal out of it every time. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/90 "2024-11-02T04:52:49Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > So one day a year you go to bed an hour earlier and one day a year you go to bed an hour later. Wow. Such hardship. > > I have no idea why people on this board make such a big deal out of it every time This is my opinion 100%. Last week I had to go to bed five hours early because I had an appointment in Seattle that I had to take the bus to. There have been times in my life where I went for 2-3 days doing nothing but working and sleeping because I had to get up for work progressively earlier every day. When I’m Emperor of the World, everyone will be required to spend a year working fast food so they understand what us retail slaves go through all of the time, and none of them will complain about Daylight Savings Time once they’ve been through that. > [@Kropotkin](#): > > When you go on strike to improve your work conditions, let me know and I will contribute to the strike fund. No strike is going to fix the problem that people reasonably expect retail and restaurants to be open outside of banker’s hours. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/91 "2024-11-02T04:54:37Z")
It does throw off some people’s rhythms for a few days, and I’ve seen studies that indicate there are small spikes in traffic accidents in the days after each time change. It’s not just “people on this board”: there are a large number of people who complain about it, and it’s an eternal news story, twice a year. My wife complains about it every time; she’s retired, and the only way it affects her – at all – is that I get up at a different time (relative to her body clock), and it changes the times of the TV shows she watches (again, relative to her body clock). The issue, I think, is that a lot of people don’t like the time changes, but other options (no DST at all, year-round DST) would also wind up pissing many people off, for other reasons. tl;dr People don’t like feeling inconvenienced or disrupted, and a fair amount of them do like to complain about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/92 "2024-11-02T13:22:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > When I’m Emperor of the World, everyone will be required to spend a year working fast food so they understand what us retail slaves go through all of the time, I worked for a few years in restaurants and a bakery and other jobs that required shift work, as did my father and brother and others in my family. Shift work is hard work and puts all kinds of stress and strain on people. I apologize for my glib remark about striking and absolutely understand and appreciate the essential work that is done outside “banker’s hours.” The issue remains, what can be done to mitigate the effects and reward shift workers appropriately? That is an issue that cannot be entrusted to the boss, and I wasn’t kidding about supporting the strike fund. I am still not a fan of the switch to and from DST, not least because my sleep patterns are wonky enough already and that hour change doesn’t help. And as noted above, I remain convinced, with no evidence at all, that results of US elections held shortly after the change in time are proof of the deleterious effect on about half the population. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/93 "2024-11-02T14:23:19Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I have no idea why people on this board make such a big deal out of it every time It is not that it is a big deal (at least, I do not have the impression that myriads are getting killed as a direct effect), it is more that it is pointless and stupid, hence directives like the aforementioned European one (which, I notice, has not been implemented). Certainly, it does nothing to improve the lives of shift-workers. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/94 "2024-11-02T14:42:14Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > The issue, I think, is that a lot of people don’t like the time changes, but other options (no DST at all, year-round DST) would also wind up pissing many people off, for other reasons. This thread was about a compromise option: split the difference and make it half an hour forward. For some reason, no one in it seems to address the compromise directly. So I don’t have a good feel if people here like it or not. Maybe I should have made it a poll. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/95 "2024-11-02T14:51:17Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > This thread was about a compromise option: split the difference and make it half an hour forward. For some reason, no one in it seems to address the compromise directly. OK, here’s my take on it: The only thing I think it has going for it is getting rid of the switching. It does an imperfect job of addressing the other complaints people have about it (it gets dark too early in the evening in winter, the sun is up too early in the summer without DST, etc.). But, then, I suppose that’s what makes it a compromise: no one gets what they really want. It also would leave Arizona (which does not use DST, due to a history of just being kind of contrarian) as permanently out of sync with its neighboring states, on its own time-zone island: a half-hour behind New Mexico and Utah, and a half-hour ahead of California and Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/96 "2024-11-02T14:57:21Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It also would leave Arizona (which does not use DST, due to a history of just being kind of contrarian) as permanently out of sync with its neighboring states, on its own time-zone island: a half-hour behind New Mexico and Utah, and a half-hour ahead of California and Nevada. No, under the proposal, all states would move to half an hour ahead of standard time, even if they don’t have Daylight Time. Well, all states except Alaska and Hawaii. So Arizona would change to the same time as New Mexico and the other Mountain Time Zone states. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/97 "2024-11-02T15:03:41Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > No, under the proposal, all states would move to half an hour ahead of standard time, even if they don’t have Daylight Time. Gotcha; that wasn’t clear to me in your OP. Your proposal adds another small wrinkle/challenge, then: it changes the current law to take the decision to go onto DST, or not, away from the control of individual states. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/98 "2024-11-02T15:05:57Z")
Right. Under my proposal, there won’t be any DST to go to. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/99 "2024-11-02T15:12:46Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > No, under the proposal, all states would move to half an hour ahead of standard time, even if they don’t have Daylight Time. Well, all states except Alaska and Hawaii. Why do you exempt Alaska and Hawaii from your proposal? Other than, “they aren’t contiguous to the rest of the U.S.”? The exemption makes them even more oddball compared to the other 48 states, as in addition to being in completely different time zones (due to their geographic locations), they’d also be permanently a half-hour out of step with the hourly rhythm (for things like television programs) with the rest of the country. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2024, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621/100 "2024-11-02T15:20:45Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Why do you exempt Alaska and Hawaii from your proposal? Mostly because they’s not in the temperate zone and Daylight Time is mostly aimed at that region. Alaska and Hawaii could be given the option to stay in their standard time zones or change to half an hour forward. Ditto for the various territories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-change-compromise-permanent-half-hour-forward/992621.md?page=6)