# Time for another look at drug decriminalization in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974 "2016-03-23T19:55:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/21 "2016-03-24T00:57:11Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Uruguay has a state-run marijuana industry, apparently. (In general, Latin American countries are increasingly moving in the direction of liberalizing on drugs, and calling for more widespread legalization). In Bolivia, [the president himself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales) is a coca farmer. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/22 "2016-03-24T08:40:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Finally, some good news for America’s balance of trade! 🙂 Indeed. There will probably be initiatives on the ballot in half a dozen states this year for legalizing recreational dope. Canada is working on legalizing it and Mexico is talking about it. One thing I noticed though, is that elected officials, especially in the US, seem to be out of step with their constituents about legalization. A majority of Americans support legalizing mj, yet most elected officials seem to be against it. That’s why it’s only being legalized by initiative and not by ordinary legislation. Also note that there’s going to be a special session of the UN General Assembly about drugs next month. Google on UNGASS 2016 for more info. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/23 "2016-03-24T15:39:44Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > One thing I noticed though, is that elected officials, especially in the US, seem to be out of step with their constituents about legalization. A majority of Americans support legalizing mj, yet most elected officials seem to be against it. It’s that way with a **lot** of issues, somehow. Partly that is because of sheer inertia among pols and pundits WRT paradigm-shifts in the established narrative or movement of the Overton Window. Partly it is because of organized ideological pockets of resistance to change which are positioned to turn out the vote against it, as with the NRA and gun control. And partly it is because of special interests giving campaign donations. As Illing begins his article linked on the OP: > [@](#): > > The drug war is an issue in this campaign, but it ought to be front and center. America’s war on drugs hasn’t worked – for anyone. It’s been a boon to the pharmaceutical companies, who don’t want the competition, and to the prison-industrial complex, who profit from locking up nonviolent offenders, but it’s been a disaster for everyone else. Well, Big Pharma and the PIC have a lot of money to give. And there are a lot of activist organizations to whom decriminalization is unthinkable. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/24 "2016-03-24T19:14:37Z")
Why is this specifically about recreational drugs? If I want to take chemotherapy as a healthy adult, I ought to be able to, assuming there isn’t a shortage. It’s my body, my decision. Autonomy over what goes into my body ought to be as important to people as the decision about what comes out. Given Roe v. Wade and the right to privacy, I don’t see how a woman deciding whether she carries a baby to term or not is much different from a man or woman deciding whether they ingest mushrooms or monkey tranquilizers. I just don’t think carving out a tiny exemption for pot is going to fix the harm caused by the drug war. Though it will continue to exempt rich white people’s kids from it, who have now embraced marijuana the way their parents and grandparents embraced alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/25 "2016-03-24T19:47:13Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Why is this specifically about recreational drugs? Because no law is made forbidding any behavior unless it is something people are visibly tempted to do? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/26 "2016-03-24T19:52:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Because no law is made forbidding any behavior unless it is something people are visibly tempted to do? But it is illegal for me to take chemo without a doctor’s permission. Women can’t buy birth control without special permission. Etc. It’s not “recreation” if I decide that I want to try a low dose antidepressant without getting approval from a government-approved expert first. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/27 "2016-03-24T20:57:18Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Why is this specifically about recreational drugs? If I want to take chemotherapy as a healthy adult, I ought to be able to, assuming there isn’t a shortage. It’s my body, my decision. Autonomy over what goes into my body ought to be as important to people as the decision about what comes out. Given Roe v. Wade and the right to privacy, I don’t see how a woman deciding whether she carries a baby to term or not is much different from a man or woman deciding whether they ingest mushrooms or monkey tranquilizers. > > I just don’t think carving out a tiny exemption for pot is going to fix the harm caused by the drug war. Though it will continue to exempt rich white people’s kids from it, who have now embraced marijuana the way their parents and grandparents embraced alcohol. I agree, but then that gets us pretty firmly into euthanasia territory (which I also agree with). The problem is that the world doesn’t run on logic. If you mention legalizing poisonous things to the general public (disregarding that there’s no difference between a pharmaceutical, recreational drug, and poison except dosage), the rug will get pulled out from under you, regardless of anything else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/28 "2016-03-24T21:15:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > But it is illegal for me to take chemo without a doctor’s permission. Women can’t buy birth control without special permission. Etc. It’s not “recreation” if I decide that I want to try a low dose antidepressant without getting approval from a government-approved expert first. Well, a libertarian policy on prescription medication, etc., would be a completely different debate, for many obvious reasons. And, not even a closely related one. The most potent argument for drug decriminalization is not high pure libertarian principle, but the disastrous practical consequences of criminalization. Good thing, too, because as you must know, most Americans do **not** hold high pure libertarian principles, but are quite ready to agree to ban a thing if it appears to cause serious social or public-health problems – which it is generally agreed, if perhaps on insufficient grounds, that drug abuse does. And, most Americans would agree that the provision of health care should be heavily regulated, physicians should have to be licensed by the state, and a great many drugs simply should not be sold over the counter, because laymen ignorant of the risks and interactions might dangerously misuse them, and there are times when the state should protect people from the consequences of their own ignorance or poor judgment. I did once know a big-L Libertarian who believed the FDA should not be abolished, but transformed into a simple labeling agency – then you could buy over the counter anything it now regulates, and it would come with an FDA warning-label as to its contents and effects. But even that would be a very tough sell politically. And not because of Big Pharma – the more things they can sell over the counter, the more money they can make. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/29 "2016-03-24T22:11:27Z")
I don’t consider myself a libertarian (though I agree with some of their views), but I’ve been saying that for years. The government should educate people about the dangers of taking drugs without knowing what they do. And then they should make detailed information available about the effects of individual drugs (more like an MSDS than a DARE propaganda pamphlet). That’s what the domain and mission of the FDA should be. Education and information in the pursuit of public safety. But I don’t agree that this is a significantly different debate. Like I said, pot is way more popular now among rich people’s children than it was a few decades ago. Now they would like us to stop treating their pothead children like poor people. And that will certainly soften the effects of the drug war, especially in the public eye, but it won’t stop poor people from being arrested over vicodin or percoset. And that same “controlled substances” attitude is what will keep the drug war going for another century, with periodic relief valves for popular rich-people drugs so they don’t get caught up in the battle the government is trying to wage against poor people. The only way to stop the drug war permanently is to eliminate the entire notion that the government should get a say in what substances we possess, transport or consume. The very idea should be anathema to a free society, and the negative effects of the drug war will continue (to a greater or lesser degree) until we stop allowing it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/30 "2016-03-25T08:47:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m for drug legalization pretty much across the board, but I call bullshit on that\*. Both marijuana and heroine were illegal long before Nixon was president, and (from wikipedia): > > Emphasis added. > > \*Not that many laws might have been racist all along, but that Nixon had much to do about it one way or the other. Yeah but how many laws are in the books which aren’t used? Apparently in the US you can even have a situation where a local law can’t be repealed (due to too-high requirements to repeal) but, since it’s against higher laws, it just “doesn’t count”, but in every country there are laws which are emphasized more than others. Not really a hypothetical pulled out of my left elbow: mandatory sentencing for both maria posession and underage drinking. Much higher incidence of the second, due among other things to public opinion considering it a “boys will be boys” kind of thing, not something to call the cops about; meanwhile, in the same location MJ is viewed as “the Devil’s weed”. Local cops more likely to bring someone in from a fight in a bar if there was someone who smelled funky (doesn’t matter if he wasn’t involved in the fight) than if everybody was underage and drunk off his gourd. There will be a lot more people getting sentenced for drug posession than for underage drinking or for procuring alcohol to underage drinkers. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/31 "2016-03-25T14:12:40Z")
It should be noted that decriminalization and legalization are not the same thing. Portugal, which is often cited as an example for a successful modern drug policy, has \*not \*legalized drugs. Since 2001 drug consumption is no longer considered a criminal offense, but it is still not legal. It is now regarded a violation against the public order. If you get caught, you are not brought before court but before a commission called the CDT (Comissões para a Dissuasão da Toxicodependência). That commission will not send you to prison, but it can fine you or send you to mandatory social service or to a drug therapy. Also decriminalization is limited to personal use. If you are caught carrying more than a 10 day supply of any drug, you are still treated as a criminal. Which means that while consumption has been decriminalized, the drug trade has not. So the fact that Portugal has not seen a spike in drug use after the reform of 2001 might have something to do with the fact that availability of drugs has not gone up and the prices have not gone down - something that woud be very different in case of full-on legalization. I think that the Portugese approach is well worth considering. It places the emphasis in the state’s dealings with drug users on therapy instead of prosecution. However it can not be used as an example of the benefits of drug legalization, because the Portugese haven’t legalized shit (pun intended). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/32 "2016-03-25T14:23:37Z")
I realize that the Dope is not and never has been a fair random representative sample of American public opinion . . . a messageboard based on a column printed in alternative weekly newspapers that are mostly distributed in big cities and college towns necessarily skews left-liberal . . . but, nevertheless, there are many Conservadopers, and I’m still surprised that **no** poster in this thread so far has yet defended American drug laws as they are now. Why is that?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/33 "2016-03-25T14:26:05Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I think that the Portugese approach is well worth considering. It places the emphasis in the state’s dealings with drug users on therapy instead of prosecution. However it can not be used as an example of the benefits of drug legalization, because the Portugese haven’t legalized shit (pun intended). Has **any** country done so, then? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/34 "2016-03-25T14:36:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Has **any** country done so, then? I do not know of any. In 2010 the Czech republic has followed the Portugese example of partial decriminalization. However, like Portugal it has kept the drug trade illegal and converted possession for personal use to a minor offense without entirely legalizing it. To the best of my knowledge no country has made consumption, possession and trade fully legal. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/35 "2016-03-25T17:27:44Z")
The Portugal example is way overblown. They did [not](http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/the-myth-of-portugal-s-drug-policy/article_d8a4f99c-ebca-52d1-b6f5-498c55b576e2.html)radically change their approach to dealing with drugs in 2001. They had already stopped arresting people for drug possession for years before that and merely formalized what was already standard practice. After the legalization drug usage rates [went](http://www.npr.org/2011/01/20/133086356/Mixed-Results-For-Portugals-Great-Drug-Experiment)up and so did deaths from overdoses. In the US people are turning to prescription drugs instead of street drugs. This has resulted in drug overdose rates doubling in the past 15 years. [Now](http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/12/21/guns_vs_cars_and_drugs_1500.html)drug overdoses kill at a higher rate than either guns or car accidents. Given that we still don’t know what the effects are from legalizing marijuana, maybe we should make sure that goes well and then think about legalizing other drugs. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/36 "2016-03-25T18:04:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I did once know a big-L Libertarian who believed the FDA should not be abolished, but transformed into a simple labeling agency – then you could buy over the counter anything it now regulates, and it would come with an FDA warning-label as to its contents and effects. But even that would be a very tough sell politically. And not because of Big Pharma – the more things they can sell over the counter, the more money they can make. The idiocy of that guy’s views are borne out by the prevalence of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, especially in parts of the world where antibiotics aren’t as regulated as they are here. And even here, we have dipshit doctors prescribing them for stuff they don’t help like the flu and for viral colds because they don’t have the balls to tell the patient no, for fear of losing them, or because they’re spineless. And if they were available over the counter, they’d quickly become absolutely useless, because stupid and/or uninformed people would take them like Tic-Tacs for things that are utterly unrelated, or they’d take them for a couple of days until the symptoms subside, etc… That aside, I kind of like the idea of changing the game board with respect to the illegal drug cartels somehow; clearly they’re a major source of criminal activity in our country and elsewhere, notably Mexico. Cutting them out of their main source of revenue would do a lot of good in that regard. I’m not sure how you’d do that exactly though, short of a more libertarian “Everything’s legal, but regulated” approach, where you could buy meth over the counter, but it would have to be of a specified purity, free of any harmful additives, etc… ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/37 "2016-03-25T18:15:21Z")
The “war on drugs” and the “war on poverty” are all but lost. When can we surrender? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/38 "2016-03-25T18:23:48Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Given that we still don’t know what the effects are from legalizing marijuana, maybe we should make sure that goes well and then think about legalizing other drugs. Every single drug was legal up until the 1930s (well, except alcohol in the '20s). It wasn’t the apocalypse you seem to think it was. Both the 19th Amendment, and the current drug war prove that prohibition is far worse than letting people decide things for themselves. And seriously? We don’t know the effects of legalizing marijuana? It’s been legal for years in Colorado. They made tons of money and crime went down. What else do you want to know? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/39 "2016-03-25T19:36:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Every single drug was legal up until the 1930s (well, except alcohol in the '20s). Can you back that up with a cite please? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974/40 "2016-03-25T20:23:06Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Can you back that up with a cite please? You get some opiate restrictions in some cities and the Pure Food and Drug Act before that (and of course alcohol prohibition), but drug prohibition is generally considered to start with the 1935 Uniform State Narcotics Drug Act and the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act. Even then, drug sentences weren’t that severe until the 1951 Boggs Act. > **[History of United States drug prohibition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_United_States_drug_prohibition)** > > This is a history of drug prohibition in the United States. > > During the 19th century, "there was virtually no effective regulation of narcotics in the United States". Statutes regulating the sale of narcotics had been passed by several state governments, and opium smoking was outlawed in numerous American municipalities, though these legislation were "only sporadically enforced". Such loose restrictions led to roughly 300,000 drug addicts in the U.S. by the turn of the century. The rate of opiat... You could consider the 19th century to be a free-for-all with regards to drugs. They were widespread, used by a lot of people, and we conquered the west, won our bloodiest war, and built the transcontinental railroad during that time. I’m not saying I’m pro-drugs here, but I am anti-prohibition, and all of history backs me up. It’s not that dangerous to let people make decisions for themselves. It is very dangerous to let the government make medical and other health-related decisions for you, _especially_ if there are criminal penalties for disagreeing with them. This is why I feel drug prohibition and the prohibition on abortion pre-Roe are two sides of the same coin. I’m not sure why the right to privacy the Court found in places like abortion and sodomy doesn’t equally apply to taking drugs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-another-look-at-drug-decriminalization-in-the-u-s/749974.md?page=3)