# Time For The Fence Along The Border **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640 "2006-05-21T16:20:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/181 "2006-05-26T16:09:53Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] The fact is that we DO limit Europeans, Africans, and Asians to some extent. Limiting one while being so open to others is NOT just letting things develop as per the wishes of those immigrants. [/QUOTE] An assertion you continue to repeat (with vague and shifting boundaries), but which you continue to fail to support with actual evidence. Earlier you were claiming that the Asians were being unduly permitted entry along with Latin Americans. Now you are claiming they are barred entry. You have still provided no shred of evidence that Europeans are actually barred from entry. I am willing to consider your position, but your position shifts from post to post and you fail to support any of your positions with solid evidence. (And you were correct that I have provided no supporting information, but I am not proposing a thesis; my sole responsibility is to refrain from deliberately mischaracterizing your position. It is not necessary for me to provide factual evidence when I am simply pointing out errors in your claims or logic. If I decide to put forth a proposal, it will be my responsibility to support it. As long as you are making proposals, it is your job to back up your claims–something you have pretty much failed to do.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/182 "2006-05-26T16:29:37Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] But I keep hearing about how immigrants are driving the price of healthcare higher. Certainly, were their costs to go down my costs would go down as well. [/quote] You mean like how when the price of oil falls the price of gas falls . . . not. [QUOTE=Merijeek] Isn’t that what the free market is all about? [/QUOTE] No, the free market is about making the maximum profit for minimum expense. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/183 "2006-05-26T17:24:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] BTW, **randyjet,** have you read this thread? > **[What role does racism play in the American anti-immigration movement?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310401)** > > This GD thread – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310224 – on the Minutemen Project brought to mind a passage I read a few years ago in Blood, Class and Nostalgia: Anglo-American Ironies, by Christopher Hitchens (Farrar, Strauss &... [/QUOTE] Yes and I used to like Hitchens until he went off the deep end over Muslim fascism. I agree with him on that point, but he takes it too far in supporting Bush and Blair. There are all kinds of points of view on virtually everything and some will not meld well with others on the same side of the issue. I am glad to see that Moveon has paired with the Christian right in fighting the corporate giants about the internet rights. I would not venture to accuse Moveon of converting to their point of view. I wish that some effort would be made to distance some on the left from the overt racists in the Aztlan and MECHA movements. If any person said the things that some of them say, they would be kicked out of the movement to secure our borders. I also read the column by Alan Wall, who I strongly disagree with on a number of things on VDare website. Neither I nor any rational person could accuse him of being a racist or anti-Mexican since he lives and works in Mexico City with his Mexican wife and two sons who are also Mexican. It would be akin to calling Jim Bowie a racist or American imperialist. Bowie was a legal immigrant in Texas and married into a prominent Mexican family and had two girls. They died of disease, and he was not the same again. The reason he was at the Alamo was to defend liberty against the dictatorship of Santa Ana. He was also very eager to die and join his wife and children. Just a note, don’t get into a battle with a commander who actively WANTS to die. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/184 "2006-05-26T17:50:27Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] It would be akin to calling Jim Bowie a racist or American imperialist.. [/QUOTE] You do know that Jim Bowie was a slave trader and believed in Slavery, right? ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/185 "2006-05-26T17:53:07Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] An assertion you continue to repeat (with vague and shifting boundaries), but which you continue to fail to support with actual evidence. Earlier you were claiming that the Asians were being unduly permitted entry along with Latin Americans. Now you are claiming they are barred entry. You have still provided no shred of evidence that Europeans are actually barred from entry. You can go to wikipedia subject on Immigration Act of 1965 for the particulars. It is quite interesting to see the demographic shifts. I would also draw you attention to the statements by all who supported the revision that it would not change the demographic composition of the US. I did not say that Europeans are barred from entry, only that illegalsf from there are not able to come in the same numbers and ways that those from south of our border do. They do have the law against them in limiting them to the legal limit. So we have the law not being enforced against one group of immigrants, yet being enforced against another. That is discrimination and in another venue is also called racial profiling. I am willing to consider your position, but your position shifts from post to post and you fail to support any of your positions with solid evidence. (And you were correct that I have provided no supporting information, but I am not proposing a thesis; my sole responsibility is to refrain from deliberately mischaracterizing your position. It is not necessary for me to provide factual evidence when I am simply pointing out errors in your claims or logic. If I decide to put forth a proposal, it will be my responsibility to support it. As long as you are making proposals, it is your job to back up your claims–something you have pretty much failed to do.) [/QUOTE] I am surprised that you have such a low level of interest in finding out the facts on your own and need somebody else to spoon feed you. You must be a journalist of the new variety. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/186 "2006-05-26T17:56:44Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] The fact is that we DO limit Europeans, Africans, and Asians to some extent. [/QUOTE] You keep saying that and I have no idea what you’re talking about. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/187 "2006-05-26T18:04:51Z")
[QUOTE=holmes] You do know that Jim Bowie was a slave trader and believed in Slavery, right? [/QUOTE] He was also Mexican at one time. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/188 "2006-05-26T18:30:35Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] I am surprised that you have such a low level of interest in finding out the facts on your own and need somebody else to spoon feed you. You must be a journalist of the new variety. [/QUOTE] You are apparently unaware of the purpose and function of this Forum. In the normal sequence of events, someone profers a thesis, supported by facts and logic, and then defends it (using facts and logic) against those who oppose it (using either different facts or applying different logic. (“Facts,” in this case, generally refers to those facts that can be substantiated by references to sources which can be verified by other persons.) You have offered up a position which you have supported with unsubstantiated claims, vague generalities, (many of them false), and a lot of bad logic. I have seen enough of such discussions to know that a case actually may be made for your position, but you have resolutely failed to make that case, relying on emotions and a lack of facts to buttress your personal opinions. I am simply attempting to show you where you need to improve your performance in order to actually participate, here, in a meaningful way. If you are unable or unwilling to actually attempt to engage in meaningful discussion, you will mark yourself as a poster who has nothing to offer. If you persist in insulting persons who are actually showing you ways to improve your performance, you will begin edging closer to violating the rules of this Forum which prohibit personal insults. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/189 "2006-05-26T18:53:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] And…when they leave for this opportunity, does Fidel happily sign off on their new Visa? Or do they have to leave under cover of night, and hope that nothing bad accidentally happens to any family they might have left behind? [/QUOTE] Well, my old teacher (who would want me to plug his new book right now) said the only reason his family got into America was because of drugs. His dad was a doctor and had a coat full of pharmaceuticals. There may or may not be something bad that would happen to their families. Either would make a leap of faith and assumptions that I don’t wish to make. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/190 "2006-05-26T19:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] But I keep hearing about how immigrants are driving the price of healthcare higher. Certainly, were their costs to go down my costs would go down as well. Isn’t that what the free market is all about? -Joe [/QUOTE] It makes sense, but you and I both know it’d never happen. The costs for health care will keep going up because of immigrants/baby boomers. Maybe that’s an interesting point. Suppose that health care is going to go up no matter what because of the baby boomers. What if the immigrants AREN’T as big a factor as we’re led to believe? And, as **Der Trihs** has said, I agree. Even if they had a magic wand to lower health care costs, the savings wouldn’t be passed on to us. People would complain like we did about oil companies making record profits while prices go up. I’m not privy to all the knowledge given in that case, but from a layman’s perspective, I see the price of gas going up, I see record profits, and I can’t help but believe that they’re both closely related. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/191 "2006-05-26T19:05:31Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Well, my old teacher (who would want me to plug his new book right now) said the only reason his family got into America was because of drugs. His dad was a doctor and had a coat full of pharmaceuticals. [/QUOTE] I think what you are saying here is that they had the means to bribe the appropriate people, in order to be allowed to leave? In that case, I guess they were lucky that they had the means to be able to provide that bribe. A lot of people in Cuba are not that lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/192 "2006-05-26T19:06:40Z")
I should have also said…go ahead and plug his book…I would love to read it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/193 "2006-05-26T19:13:28Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] It makes sense, but you and I both know it’d never happen. The costs for health care will keep going up because of immigrants/baby boomers. Maybe that’s an interesting point. Suppose that health care is going to go up no matter what because of the baby boomers. What if the immigrants AREN’T as big a factor as we’re led to believe? [/QUOTE] They’re not. Most of my questions were “wide-eyed innocence combined with sarcasm and an unrealistic faith in the free market.” However, seeing as how **randyjet** ’s “terrists are gonna git us” has been ripped apart so thoroughly I figured I’d start in on the “immigrants are forcing hospitals to close due to unpaid bills!” bit. Then again, it’s clear exactly what he is trying to do, even if he hasn’t given up quite yet. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/194 "2006-05-26T19:19:23Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Can you please—please—try, just a little, to not be so mind-numbingly predictable. Just type “Der Trihs makes comment here.” and we’ll all be able to get your point. And just think of all the time saved: typing on your end, and reading and rolling eyes on ours. You can probably just paste it in, for even greater time savings on your end. Just think how many more threads you could…uh, _enlighten_…with this method. [/QUOTE] Are you trying to say we’ve never supported dictators? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/195 "2006-05-26T19:28:41Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Well, my old teacher (who would want me to plug his new book right now) said the only reason his family got into America was because of drugs. [/QUOTE] Jeez, that’s like a Frenchman moving to Britain for the food! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/196 "2006-05-26T21:32:57Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Are you trying to say we’ve never supported dictators? :dubious: [/QUOTE] No. Are you trying to make it sound like I’ve said we’ve never supported dictators? Please point out where I said that. :dubious: :dubious: And why you chose to evidently ignore this post that follwed the one you quoted: [QUOTE=magellan01] And big newsflash. In the real world sometimes you have to deal with unsavory characters, choose the lesser of two evils. Would you prefer that we never talk to anyone bad and try yo make the best of bad situations? Grow up. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/197 "2006-05-26T21:43:21Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] And big newsflash. In the real world sometimes you have to deal with unsavory characters, choose the lesser of two evils. Would you prefer that we never talk to anyone bad and try yo make the best of bad situations? Grow up. [/QUOTE] Interesting comment from someone that affirms allowing “unsavory” illegals to legalize their stay is forever a bad idea. Even if your side calls it amnesty in an effort to deny a viable solution, the fact is we will have to talk to those “bad” illegals and make the best of the situation by legalizing the status of many of them. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/198 "2006-05-26T22:15:29Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Interesting comment from someone that affirms allowing “unsavory” illegals to legalize their stay is forever a bad idea. Even if your side calls it amnesty in an effort to deny a viable solution, the fact is we will have to talk to those “bad” illegals and make the best of the situation by legalizing the status of many of them. [/QUOTE] Or talk to those “bad” illegals and tell them it’s time to leave. But you may be correct. Now that the senate has sold us out it is up to the House. Hope springs eternal. And why did you put “unsavory” and “bad” in quotes? Is it because you know those are not my words but wanted to associate them with me anyway? Why am I not surprised? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/199 "2006-05-26T22:43:52Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Or talk to those “bad” illegals and tell them it’s time to leave. But you may be correct. Now that the senate has sold us out it is up to the House. Hope springs eternal. [/quote] I have said before that I’m in favor of more enforcement, I still have my doubts on a fence with enforcement when people like Tancredo and Sesenbrener just continue giving tax cuts to the well to do in this time of need, the reality remains that they sure sound good to people like you, but when they don’t bother to say how they will fund all this then one has never really grown up if one is not cynical or suspicious of their true intent: to use and pull the chains of their base. But speaking of hope, one possible outcome is that the pigheadness of the extremists attempting to deny any legalization will doom any compromise and there will be very little change now, untill next congress that very likely will have less Republicans and be more supportive of the Senate plan. > [@](#): > > And why did you put “unsavory” and “bad” in quotes? Is it because you know those are not my words but wanted to associate them with me anyway? Why am I not surprised? The context in this and other threads leaves little doubt on what do you consider is the overall character of the illegals. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/200 "2006-05-26T23:06:33Z")
Fence is a great idea. We have had laws stopping drugs for many years and look how hard it is to get drugs in America.We have a department that does a great job and it 's money so well spent and there is no waste. This could work just as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=11)