# Time For The Fence Along The Border **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640 "2006-05-21T16:20:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/281 "2006-05-28T21:37:05Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] You keep claiming that your beef is that what they are doing is illegal. If that’s your beef, then making it legal solves it. If that’s not your beef with illegal immigrants, then what is? [/QUOTE] Discussion is a two-way street. [QUOTE=magellan01] Please describe in more detail your idea, which would hopefully include an answer to my question. [/QUOTE] I think I’ve demonstrated my willingness to participate fully. Can you please do the same? Or have you not thought things out well enough? I don’t mean that to be snarky, truly, but it’s difficult to address the discussion efficiently when you do not tell me what your position is. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/282 "2006-05-28T21:43:38Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I think I’ve demonstrated my willingness to participate fully. Can you please do the same? Or have you not thought things out well enough. [/QUOTE] My position is quite clear. I think that anyone who claims that their main problem with illegal immigration is the fact that the immigrants are breaking a law should embrace the removal of that law. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/283 "2006-05-28T22:04:16Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] They are citizens of the country from whence they came. [/quote] If they were _born here_, they didn’t come from anywhere else. Why is the 16 year old daughter of an illegal immigrant any less American than I am ? Someone who’s never left the country ? [QUOTE=magellan01] Are you saying they would not be allowed to go back? And that they could not take their children with them. If so, that is a valid problem. But I don’t think it to be the case, so please provide a cite to the contrary. [/quote] How can I provide a cite when the situation hasn’t come up ? We _aren’t_ engaging in the kind of mass deportations you want, and probably never will. [QUOTE=magellan01] As far as their children, the [Mexican Constitution](http://www.ilstu.edu/class/hist263/docs/1917const.html#TitleIChapterII) states that their children are citizens of Mexico. [/quote] Fine, that’s one country, out of quite a few - unless they change their minds. That still doesn’t make it anything other than cruelty, however. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/284 "2006-05-28T22:07:22Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] My position is quite clear. I think that anyone who claims that their main problem with illegal immigration is the fact that the immigrants are breaking a law should embrace the removal of that law. [/QUOTE] If it was clear, I wouldn’t have asked you questions in order to clarify. Really, this seems quite reasonable. But, if you don’t want to have a discussion, than don’t. Fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/285 "2006-05-28T22:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] If they were _born here_, they didn’t come from anywhere else. Why is the 16 year old daughter of an illegal immigrant any less American than I am ? Someone who’s never left the country ? [/QUOTE] As the law stands, she is not. I propose that the law change and that she be considered a citizen of Mexico. This law applies to the children of diplomats liviing here and that doesn’t seem to cause any problem or confusion. Person A: Where were you raised? Person B: New York. Person A: Oh, you’re American. Person B: Kinda. I was raised there but I’m actually a citizen of Burundi. Person A: Is that where your parents are from? Person B: Yeah. Person A: Oh, cool. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Fine, that’s one country, out of quite a few - unless they change their minds. That still doesn’t make it anything other than cruelty, however. [/QUOTE] I agree it would be a problem to the extent that a country does not consider the offspring of their citizens born abroad to be a citizen of the home country. But I looked up the country with the most illegals here and they consider such children to be citizens. So, if your argument is: “And thus creating an underclass of stateless people.”, make your case. As of right now it’s merely an opinion based on at least one false assumption. As far as it being cruel, I see how you consider it so. But it’s the parents’ fault not mine (ours). If a man steals a bicycle and gicves it to his son, do you think the son has a right to keep the bicycle? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/286 "2006-05-28T23:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] If it was clear, I wouldn’t have asked you questions in order to clarify. [/QUOTE] Sure you would have. I asked you a question, and you didn’t answer it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/287 "2006-05-29T00:01:55Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] But it’s the parents’ fault not mine (ours). [/quote] Considering it’s a problem manufactured from American bigotry and nothing else, it _is_ our fault. That is the one and only reason we want to send such kids away. [QUOTE=magellan01] If a man steals a bicycle and gicves it to his son, do you think the son has a right to keep the bicycle? [/QUOTE] And what has been stolen ? The kid was born here and raised here; he or she is just as American as I am. If you can justify throwing that kid out into a country he’s never seen, you can do the same to me. This is about bigotry and cruelty, and _that’s all_. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/288 "2006-05-29T01:00:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Considering it’s a problem manufactured from American bigotry and nothing else, it _is_ our fault. That is the one and only reason we want to send such kids away. [/QUOTE] 1. How is someone sneaking into our country or overstaying their visa our fault? 2. How is their deciding to have a child our fault? Or our responsibility? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] And what has been stolen ? The kid was born here and raised here; he or she is just as American as I am. If you can justify throwing that kid out into a country he’s never seen, you can do the same to me. This is about bigotry and cruelty, and _that’s all_. [/QUOTE] Obviously, the point is that they are both ill-gotten gains. But I have no basis whatsoever (as far as I kow) for throwing you out. That is NOT the same thing we are talking about. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] This is about bigotry and cruelty, and _that’s all_. [/QUOTE] Do you honestly think this? Wow. Is your mind so conditioned to think one way that you cannot accept that therre might be well-meaning people who have simply come to a different conclusion than you. That they might weigh the many factors that you have weighed differently. So there is absolutely no consideration of the impact they have on our schools and hospitals? and how these impacts adversely effect our own citizens? Or no consideration about the message it send encouraging further illegal immigration? Or how unfair it is to those who wait in line playing by the rules? None of that might come into play? It’s all “bigotry and cruelty”. If you want to say those things play a role, we could discuss that, but this is one of the most ridiculous, close-minded things I’ve heard. And that includes many of you other statements of the same ilk. AND THAT’S SAYING SOMETHING. And just so I understand you, when you say bigotry, what do you mean by it? Racial bigotry. If so, how do you explain the Mexicans here legally who might agree with me. Or how do you explain me wanting what I propose enforced across all illegals, whether they hail from Mexico, Ireland, Nigeria, Thailand, Italy, Brazil, or England? I’d ask you, to give yourself a challenge. Try—just try—to formulate an argument from my side that does not depend on “cruelty and bogotry”. You don’t even have to share it. But it might help further discussions, as it might lead you to see that those who do not agree with you are not demons. But if your way works for you, enjoy. If you wish continue, please answer my questions. If not, have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/289 "2006-05-29T01:20:23Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] If that’s your goal, then the easiest solution is to just make it easy and legal for a foreign citizen to enter this country. If they can come here legally (which also allows them to go just as easily, and even return at their whim), it’s certainly a lot less attractive for someone to come illegally. [/QUOTE] Which is where I was in this post before we were refining when slavery was abolished worldwide. Building a wall isn’t going to make people want to get into this country any less (or more). It’s merely treating the symptom and the problem still grows. A quick fix would be to make the definition of “illegal” immigration so narrow and focused. That way, less people are caught up in the dragnet and a slim amount of these problems go away. This problem isn’t about “illegals” at all. It’s about the status quo, racism, powrer, nativism, and money. How you tend to stand on those issues, you tend to fall on this issue (so it may seem). Building a barrier doesn’t solve things. It’s simply running away from problems on a large scale. We need some sort of system-wide reform on many levels. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/290 "2006-05-29T01:20:28Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] Sure you would have. I asked you a question, and you didn’t answer it. [/QUOTE] Maybe you missed it. Let’s recap. Your post 274: [QUOTE=DMC] If that’s your goal, then the easiest solution is to just make it easy and legal for a foreign citizen to enter this country. If they can come here legally (which also allows them to go just as easily, and even return at their whim), it’s certainly a lot less attractive for someone to come illegally. [/QUOTE] My response, post 275, notice the punctuation at the end: [QUOTE=magellan01] It seems you are advocating open borders, whoever want s to come in, can just come in. That denies a nation the right to control its borders and the flow of immigrants into its country. Do you not think that the governemnt has a right—and obligation—to do control how many and who they let in? [/QUOTE] Your response, post 276, which addresses only the first sentence in #275, and NOT the question asked at the end (identifiable by the little squigly thing with the dot under it): [QUOTE=DMC] [QUOTE=magellan01] It seems you are advocating open borders, whoever want s to come in, can just come in. [/QUOTE] No, actually it seems you are. It would easily solve the perceived problem you seem to have, which is that they are breaking the law. [/QUOTE] In my next post, #278, I told you I was confused by your non-answer and asked you to describe what your position is, and requested an answer to my question that was pending: [QUOTE=magellan01] What? My idea includes having control of the borders. Please describe in more detail your idea, which would hopefully include an answer to my question. [/QUOTE] So, if you’d like to keep the discussion going, answer the questions that are asked of you. Why would you fight that? Especially when they are giving you the opportunity to clarify your position? Do you think it is more helpful for me to respond to you when I am unclear about something? Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/291 "2006-05-29T01:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] 1. How is someone sneaking into our country or overstaying their visa our fault? 2. How is their deciding to have a child our fault? Or our responsibility? [/quote] _Deporting_ them is our fault. We don’t need to; we need their parents here, working. We certainly don’t need to deport the kid. [QUOTE=magellan01] Obviously, the point is that they are both ill-gotten gains. But I have no basis whatsoever (as far as I kow) for throwing you out. That is NOT the same thing we are talking about. [/quote] It _is_ the same thing. I’m a citizen because I was born here; so are they. If they can be thrown out, so can I. [QUOTE=magellan01] Do you honestly think this? Wow. Is your mind so conditioned to think one way that you cannot accept that therre might be well-meaning people who have simply come to a different conclusion than you. That they might weigh the many factors that you have weighed differently. [/quote] Not on this matter. [QUOTE=magellan01] So there is absolutely no consideration of the impact they have on our schools and hospitals? and how these impacts adversely effect our own citizens? [/quote] They _support_ them. _We_ are exploiting _them_, not the other way around. [QUOTE=magellan01] Or no consideration about the message it send encouraging further illegal immigration? [/quote] Well, whoop-te-do. [QUOTE=magellan01] Or how unfair it is to those who wait in line playing by the rules? [/quote] Yet you don’t worry about the unfairness of throwing a 14 year old out of the only country she’s ever known ? [QUOTE=magellan01] It’s all “bigotry and cruelty”. [/quote] When I see a big push to punish the people who _hire_ illegal immigrants, I might think there was something else beyond bigotry and cruelty. Until then, no. [QUOTE=magellan01] Or how do you explain me wanting what I propose enforced across all illegals, whether they hail from Mexico, Ireland, Nigeria, Thailand, Italy, Brazil, or England? [/quote] One can be bigoted against all foregners - not that it’ll work out this way. It’ll be the poor and brown who get stomped on. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/292 "2006-05-29T01:37:33Z")
**Der** , if there is a way to stop illegal immigration, it’s to punish the people that hire them. Impose a steep penalty, then the need for cheap labor dries up. Again, a fence will do nothing to solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/293 "2006-05-29T01:51:22Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] **Der** , if there is a way to stop illegal immigration, it’s to punish the people that hire them. Impose a steep penalty, then the need for cheap labor dries up. Again, a fence will do nothing to solve the problem. [/QUOTE] While I wholeheartedly agree that we need to enforce the laws against employers and that that will do much to curb illegal immigration, to say that a fence will do nothing defies logic. The more difficult it is for people to come, the fewer that will come, the easier we make it, the more that will come. That’s just human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/294 "2006-05-29T02:00:16Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] **Der** , if there is a way to stop illegal immigration, it’s to punish the people that hire them. Impose a steep penalty, then the need for cheap labor dries up. [/QUOTE] Did I say otherwise ? [QUOTE=magellan01] The more difficult it is for people to come, the fewer that will come, the easier we make it, the more that will come. [/QUOTE] And what makes you think anything short of a larger version of the Berlin Wall will make it much more difficult than it is now ? Considering that people from both sides will be knocking it down, tunneling under it or finding ways around it. These people come here because we _want_ them here. If necessary I’m sure you’ll find American companies digging tunnels to let them in. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/295 "2006-05-29T02:04:19Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Did I say otherwise ? [/QUOTE] Nope. Just buttressing it slightly. Maybe putting the argument in a slightly different way. Perhaps the nuance might get the discussion somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/296 "2006-05-29T02:10:24Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] While I wholeheartedly agree that we need to enforce the laws against employers and that that will do much to curb illegal immigration, to say that a fence will do nothing defies logic. The more difficult it is for people to come, the fewer that will come, the easier we make it, the more that will come. That’s just human nature. [/QUOTE] At that point, it also becomes a cost/benefit scenario. Is it going to stop immigraiton that much? Is it worth it? I simply do not see how erecting an impassible barrier and manning it will get this done. I also don’t see why it must be done. I do see what it is doing to our society as it is now, but that means we change our system. The proposed fence, I heard on NPR, goes up to the ocean. It is very possible to just swim out a hundred or so feet, or rent scuba gear and get into America. Building a wall there means “securing” the southeastern Texas border as well as the Pacific border of California. The border then becomes bigger with more personnel and resources to get such a job done. Once again, it’s just simply not worth it. It’s not very Quaker Oats\*. \*because Quaker Oats is the right thing to do, according to Wilford Brimley ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/297 "2006-05-29T02:16:22Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Did I say otherwise ? And what makes you think anything short of a larger version of the Berlin Wall will make it much more difficult than it is now ? Considering that people from both sides will be knocking it down, tunneling under it or finding ways around it. These people come here because we _want_ them here. If necessary I’m sure you’ll find American companies digging tunnels to let them in. [/QUOTE] No one is talking about just building a wall and walking away. The wall will be supplemented by electronic surveillance,: drones and other things. In total, these things augment the Border Patrol. They talk about the fence as a force multiplier, not a substitution. And if any American company, or individual tries to subvert the fence or otherwise aid illegals, they will be arrested and jailed for a long time. Or should bem any way. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/298 "2006-05-29T02:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] No one is talking about just building a wall and walking away. The wall will be supplemented by electronic surveillance,: drones and other things. In total, these things augment the Border Patrol. They talk about the fence as a force multiplier, not a substitution. And if any American company, or individual tries to subvert the fence or otherwise aid illegals, they will be arrested and jailed for a long time. Or should bem any way. [/QUOTE] That’s a perfect description of the Berlin Wall. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/299 "2006-05-29T02:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] \*because Quaker Oats is the right thing to do, according to Wilford Brimley [/QUOTE] The Border Patrol seems to think the fence they have in San Diego has been extremely helpful. and if it extends into the Pacific a coulpe hundred yards, patrolled by Border Patrol or Coast Guard boatds, so much the better. They idea is to have control of our own borders. Why is that so strange? We can then let in 100, 1,000, 1,000,000, or 10,000,000 a year. Whatever number we deem appropriate. If these paople are so valuable to our economy and contributye so much, we’ll open the flood gates and everyine will be here legally. So, what’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/300 "2006-05-29T02:23:29Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] That’s a perfect description of the Berlin Wall. :dubious: [/QUOTE] :dubious: :dubious: Well, the Berlin Wall was designed to keep people in, which morally is very different than a fence designed to keep people out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=16)