# Time For The Fence Along The Border **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640 "2006-05-21T16:20:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/341 "2006-05-31T00:34:27Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Funny, I seem to recall the moderator saying that hurling epithets was supposed to be avioded. I guess it is OK for one side to do it as long as you are on his side. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Like the roll eyes smilie, calling someone a liar is not forbidden. So you are [del]lying[/del] mistaken 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/342 "2006-05-31T00:41:18Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Well, while still disputed by people on both sides waving numbers around, that is clearly a solid position from which to argue. It is clear that we will not “all agree” with the premise, but it is rarely offered as a point that everyone is expected to agree to. [/QUOTE] Since I am to my knowledge the only person posting who has lived on the border for many years, in Laredo and McAllen, Tx, I think I can speak more to the point about medical care there and the fact that illegals have created a major burden on the hospitals there. My wife also lived in McAllen far longer than I did and was married to another guy whose family had lived there even longer. She got a divorce from her then husband, and their business went bankrupt after it had been there for many decades. She found herself without any health insurance as a result. She then got uterine cancer. She went to the doctor, and since it was not an emergency, the county would not cover her operation for it. The doctor told her tough, die. Fortunately, his partner came back from vacation and was her regular doctor, called her up and said he would lie on the paperwork to make it possible for her to get the operation done at county expense. After the operation had been successfully done, she needed chemo as part of her treatment. She was told that she would have to wait until next year because there was no money in the budget for such treatment. This after having paid a large amount of taxes for decades and employing a number of people. The county had to reserve a large fund for the care of the illegal indigents that you can see any time you wish by going to the hospital in McAllen’s emergency room. Of course, by the time she would have gotten permission to get the treatment she would be dead. She was fortunate to have a sister in Galveston, so she moved there to get the chemo done at the U of Texas Medical Branch. That is the cost of illegals. I think that apart from actual emergency care of a life threatening nature, the care in such hospitals should go to the folks who paid for it. In our county, even Americans get no help from the county, except in extreme cases and even then, the amount is limited to $30,000/lifetime. The county does not re-imburse the doctors or hospitals at anything close to the rate of the cost when indigent care is given as well. That is another point of contention in Montgomery county, so the hospital bears most of the cost. Fortunately, they have enough paying patients so that they are in good shape I think, but of course the cost is passed on to the paying patients to make up the difference. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/343 "2006-05-31T01:03:37Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Since I am to my knowledge the only person posting who has lived on the border for many years, in Laredo and McAllen, Tx, I think I can speak more to the point about medical care there and the fact that illegals have created a major burden on the hospitals there. My wife also lived in McAllen far longer than I did and was married to another guy whose family had lived there even longer. She got a divorce from her then husband, and their business went bankrupt after it had been there for many decades. She found herself without any health insurance as a result. She then got uterine cancer. She went to the doctor, and since it was not an emergency, the county would not cover her operation for it. The doctor told her tough, die. Fortunately, his partner came back from vacation and was her regular doctor, called her up and said he would lie on the paperwork to make it possible for her to get the operation done at county expense. After the operation had been successfully done, she needed chemo as part of her treatment. She was told that she would have to wait until next year because there was no money in the budget for such treatment. This after having paid a large amount of taxes for decades and employing a number of people. The county had to reserve a large fund for the care of the illegal indigents that you can see any time you wish by going to the hospital in McAllen’s emergency room. Of course, by the time she would have gotten permission to get the treatment she would be dead. She was fortunate to have a sister in Galveston, so she moved there to get the chemo done at the U of Texas Medical Branch. That is the cost of illegals. I think that apart from actual emergency care of a life threatening nature, the care in such hospitals should go to the folks who paid for it. In our county, even Americans get no help from the county, except in extreme cases and even then, the amount is limited to $30,000/lifetime. The county does not re-imburse the doctors or hospitals at anything close to the rate of the cost when indigent care is given as well. That is another point of contention in Montgomery county, so the hospital bears most of the cost. Fortunately, they have enough paying patients so that they are in good shape I think, but of course the cost is passed on to the paying patients to make up the difference. [/QUOTE] But as it was mentioned before, you are making the assumption that most of the uninsured are illegals, on the last thread it was shown to be just an assumption not supported by any serious data. However, I did mention that indeed on the border the effect illegals have in heath care is serious, but not the main reason why hospitals were being closed. As the data I saw in the other thread, the number of the uninsured was staggering, if the majority of them were illegals I would expect all of them to be dropping like flies, So I don’t think illegals are the main problem, the uninsured are, and I do see the illegal accusation as just another demagogue move by the current leadership that is not bothering to deal with the health care inequality that we continue having in America. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/344 "2006-05-31T01:13:50Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Funny, I seem to recall the moderator saying that hurling epithets was supposed to be avioded. I guess it is OK for one side to do it as long as you are on his side. [/QUOTE] Actually, while it’s acceptable to call a lie a lie, my line wasn’t in reference to you at all. There are a large number of people who trumpet that their main problem with illegal immigrants is that they are breaking the law, and it was directed to them. While I happen to think your stance regarding terrorists crossing the desert to get into our country is a bunch of hooey, it’s at least a reason to be against illegal immigrants other than “they are breaking the law”. So, I think that your arguments are silly, but you don’t appear to be lying about your motivations, even though I appear to have been initially correct in my assessment earlier in this thread (about this rant being personal in nature), judging by your latest post. Based on your last post, you should channel your energies into pushing for universal healthcare, as opposed to fighting immigration, as it would actually have solved the problem. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/345 "2006-05-31T01:20:39Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] Originally Posted by **I Don’t Even Know Who Anymore** The nativism is all on the other side as well. MECHA and others think that since the Southwest used to be part of Mexico, that they therefore have a right to live where they and their ancestors never lived just because it had once been part of that country. For those who subscribe to that kind of argument, I hope that they will extend it to more than just Mexicans. In that case, Russians can emmigrate to the US since they have that right, since Alaska used to be Russian. Or we should just let Russians charter some boats and come across to Alaska and then to the US since the Russian settlements went down the US coast as well. Such folks will get great support from the neo-Nazis in Germany since they want to restore all of what was historically and until very recently East Prussia to Germany. After WWII millions of Germans who had been there for centuries were forced from their homes and lands, as East Prussia was divided between Poland and Russia. The MECHAs and the German neo-Nazis have a lot in common. I’m not against this at all. Actually, I think I’ve argued for it in this thread and others as well. If the problem is that some Mexicans see the land in the Southwest as their ancestral land (but have no paper trail to back it up) and you can provide a useful solution to it, then you’re WELL on the way to a Nobel Peace prize. This Mexican/American solution could be taken to help the Native American/Federal government situation, and even the Israel/Palestine problem, for there are eerily similar claims for those situations. There is a solution to this problem, it is called enforcing the law and building the fence. I can care less what an idiot may think if he says he owns my home because his nationality used to claim it as part of his country. I do care when he tries to take my home or claim that he has the same right of citizenship as I have. None of the illegals were born in the US, otherwise they would not be illegals. That is unlike the Israeli-Palestinian situation where hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were born in what is now Israel. Native Americans are also citizens of the US as well now and have been for almost a century. I see no similarity there unless you are racist and think that because your race once occupied some ground that it is yours by right forever. The current MECHAs types would think that Hitler was right in demanding the Sudentenland be returned to Germany. Those lands had been taken from Germany after WWI and had a majority German population as well and given to Czechoslovakia. There is a big difference between that and the situation in the Southwest US. NOne of the current illegals have ever lived as citizens there at any time prior to the change of the border. Unlike the Sudeten Germans who had lived there for centuries and had at one time been German citizens. Note how the “wall” for Native Americans is pushing them to reservations. What kind of problems has that caused? I didn’t know that Native Americans were not citizens and could not leave the reservations. Is that your contention? There is a very real wall build by Israel. How well is that working for them? How many resources do they have to divert to that wall? If “good fences make good neighbors”, how come Israel and Palestine don’t dine at the same table?(metaphorically speaking, of course.) If the peace agreements are ever worked out, they will have some peace there. The problem with the Israeli fence is that it is unilaterraly imposed and perhaps a majority of the Palestinians have lived in the place that is now Israel. Also if you will note that part of the agreement or problem is to reject the claims of the right of return for Palestinians who once lived in Israeli territory. I don’t think you would claim that the illegals all once lived in the US. After those agreements are signed, will the disposessed Palestinians still have the right to reclaim their homes and lands? I don’t think so. So why say that folks who never lived in the US somehow have a right by virtue of race or nationality to be here? Both of those “solutions” aren’t. These three problems aren’t perfectly aligned, but there are shades of those problems in each of these instances. How do you get peace between Israel and Palestine? You need to reform the system. How can we start getting some useful solution out of our mishandling of the Natives? Coming up with a new solution that includes changing how they’re treated. How do we fix this border problem? Make immigration and free flow of people through borders very easy and overhaul the system. Augment welfare. Embrace a second language, don’t stifle it. As Eddie Izzard said “the Dutch speak 4 languages and smoke marijuana. Yeah? Well they’re cheating!” Times change, people change, and problems arise when the system doesn’t change with those times. This is the time (actually, it’s past the time). [/QUOTE] Well you should preach to Mexico to do that. They sure as hell don’t allow any of their latin american brothers to stay in Mexico and they sure won’t pay even medical treatment for them if they are dying. I already speak TWO languages and a good part of a third. The Dutch and the rest of Europe don’t have open borders either by the way. I know because I have tried to get work there and even though I am one of a few qualified in my area of work, they will not let me work there. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/346 "2006-05-31T01:27:01Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] The county had to reserve a large fund for the care of the illegal indigents that you can see any time you wish by going to the hospital in McAllen’s emergency room. [/QUOTE] McAllen, a border city to Mexico in South Texas is 80.4% Hispanic. [http://www.city-data.com/city/McAllen-Texas.html](http://www.city-data.com/city/McAllen-Texas.html) How can you determine which of the emergency’s room occupants are all illegal aliens? They were Asian? 😃 There is a reserve fund set up for indegent care just for illegal aliens and not indegent care? FWIW, I’ve never been to McAllen. I’ve been to Laredo. The only non-Hispanic that I saw down there was me in my rearview mirror. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/347 "2006-05-31T01:27:39Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] Actually, while it’s acceptable to call a lie a lie, my line wasn’t in reference to you at all. There are a large number of people who trumpet that their main problem with illegal immigrants is that they are breaking the law, and it was directed to them. While I happen to think your stance regarding terrorists crossing the desert to get into our country is a bunch of hooey, it’s at least a reason to be against illegal immigrants other than “they are breaking the law”. So, I think that your arguments are silly, but you don’t appear to be lying about your motivations, even though I appear to have been initially correct in my assessment earlier in this thread (about this rant being personal in nature), judging by your latest post. Based on your last post, you should channel your energies into pushing for universal healthcare, as opposed to fighting immigration, as it would actually have solved the problem. [/QUOTE] Since unlike you, I have lived on the border for many years in Laredo, and McAllen TX so I know that we do have a major problem with the open borders. Universal health care in the US without some verification of citizenship will only result in more illegals coming into the US for free medical care. Is that what you are supporting? We will simply become the free health care provider for all of the western hemisphere and US citizens will be frozen out as my wife was when she had cancer. I refer you to my earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/348 "2006-05-31T01:39:11Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Look at this way. You have no proof that illegal aliens are responsible for hospital closures. [/QUOTE] And **tomndebb** was free to ask for said proof. He didn’t. And you don’t know what proof I have or don’t have. Only that none was included with the initial claim. So, please show me the evidence leading you to conclude that I have no proof? [QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Saying that they are failed hospitals because of them is essentially a lie. [/QUOTE] A _lie_? So, you are saying not that I may have been mistaken, but that I _knew_ the claim to be false, yet included it anyway. Because that is what it would take for it to be a lie.:rolleyes: So tell me, since you made the claim, what evidence do you have to support it? Or would you like to retract the accusation and apologize? ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/349 "2006-05-31T01:41:11Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] McAllen, a border city to Mexico in South Texas is 80.4% Hispanic. [http://www.city-data.com/city/McAllen-Texas.html](http://www.city-data.com/city/McAllen-Texas.html) How can you determine which of the emergency’s room occupants are all illegal aliens? They were Asian? 😃 There is a reserve fund set up for indegent care just for illegal aliens and not indegent care? FWIW, I’ve never been to McAllen. I’ve been to Laredo. The only non-Hispanic that I saw down there was me in my rearview mirror. [/QUOTE] A good friend of mine married a local gal while I was stationed there at Laredo AFB in the 60s. I loved the place except you had a hard time dating the local girls. I was there for one and half years and went to the local college for some courses. It is soley for indigent care and the hospitals do not ask for proof of citizenship. Unlike Mexico where they will not take care of US citizens who are severely injured. Again, I know that from personal experience from a friend of mine who was in a plane crash in Monterey Mexico. My friends had to smuggle him out of the hospital where he had initially been taken immediately after the crash and charter a med evac flight from Houston since he had no health insurance and the hospital refused to even give the guy an asprin. They just pluncked him in a bed and that was it. His buddies had to get him some pain medication on their own. They got away since it was the dead of night and nobody was around to stop them. He got into the charity hospital in Houston and got treated for his injuries. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/350 "2006-05-31T01:44:15Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] Since unlike you, I have lived on the border for many years in Laredo, and McAllen TX so I know that we do have a major problem with the open borders. [/QUOTE] I’m glad to know that El Paso, where I lived for quite a while, isn’t on the border. Is Juarez a city in Texas? You’ll be happy to know that I have never in my entire life found myself, or anyone I personally know, in any way negatively impacted by an illegal immigrant. > [@](#): > > Universal health care in the US without some verification of citizenship will only result in more illegals coming into the US for free medical care. Is that what you are supporting? We will simply become the free health care provider for all of the western hemisphere and US citizens will be frozen out as my wife was when she had cancer. I refer you to my earlier post. I read your post. I saw absolutely nothing in your post that backed up your stance that illegal immigrants are what kept her from getting treatment. Nothing. The line “The county had to reserve a large fund for the care of the illegal indigents that you can see any time you wish by going to the hospital in McAllen’s emergency room.” actually speaks volumes, but not what you think it says, and what is says isn’t pretty. I saw hundreds of “hispanic looking” people today. I have no idea if I saw hundreds of illegal immigrants, hundreds of legal immigrants, hundreds of naturalized citizens, or hundreds of tenth generation native born citizens. I simply saw “hispanic looking” people. Heck, they might not even have been hispanic. Also, do you really think a lot of people are going to risk their lives trying to wander across a desert in order to get free medical care? Anyone that desperate probably deserves the care. If you think hospitals are going out of their way to treat the uninsured, even in areas that no illegal immigrant has ever set foot, you are very misguided. I was simply stating that universal healthcare would have covered the uninsured person in your example. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/351 "2006-05-31T01:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] It is soley for indigent care and the hospitals do not ask for proof of citizenship. [/QUOTE] You do know that indigent != illegal immigrant, correct? ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/352 "2006-05-31T06:14:31Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] But as it was mentioned before, you are making the assumption that most of the uninsured are illegals, on the last thread it was shown to be just an assumption not supported by any serious data. However, I did mention that indeed on the border the effect illegals have in heath care is serious, but not the main reason why hospitals were being closed. As the data I saw in the other thread, the number of the uninsured was staggering, if the majority of them were illegals I would expect all of them to be dropping like flies, So I don’t think illegals are the main problem, the uninsured are, and I do see the illegal accusation as just another demagogue move by the current leadership that is not bothering to deal with the health care inequality that we continue having in America. [/QUOTE] I agree that my data comes from personal observation and reports from people who live in the area. I know that not all indigent are illegal, and in fact from what a friend of mine told me his estimate is that it is about 50% of the indigent. Most of the folks in the Valley don’t have health insurance in any case. That included teachers back when I lived there. That is who my co-worker was. He had to have a part time job because as a full time school teacher he had no health insurance, so he worked part time as a UPS driver for it. In case you didn’t know, there is a noticeable difference in the Spanish spoken on the US side of the border, and that spoken on the Mexican side. They use different words for the same object and I was rather startled to see that when I first got there. One of the points of contention is the bastardization of the Spanish spoken in Texas and that it is not really proper Spanish according to Mexicans. Just as we can tell who is from the South by accent, the same is true there. So I will take my co-workers observation as accurate since I know of no studies on the proportion of illegals to US citizens. I also know my next door neighbor had a side business in getting false documentation to illegals to establish US residency and access to the health care provided by the county. So given all that, I don’t think it is a stretch by any means that the illegals are putting a huge burden on us with no good reason. I also gave a few talks to my co-workers class in Weslaco Middle School about aviation and the opportunities and history of it. Texas still doesn’t have much health insurance for its teacher still. Those folks in the Valley sure don’t pay them much either. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/353 "2006-05-31T06:32:15Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] I also know my next door neighbor had a side business in getting false documentation to illegals to establish US residency and access to the health care provided by the county. So given all that, I don’t think it is a stretch by any means that the illegals are putting a huge burden on us with no good reason. [/QUOTE] Are we sure we can not even imagine some good reasons, like looking for a better future? I already mentioned that on the border it is a serious problem, but on the whole it is a health care issue affecting all Americans, after seeing proponents of draconian measures like Tancredo and Sensenbrenner giving once again another tax cut to the well to do, they sure are not thinking on helping neither the illegals or the American uninsured. And IMHO they are are glad many Americans are not demanding better care since many have accepted the misleading idea that illegals are the cause of the problems. I am clinical enough to say that Tancredo and buddies also planned it that way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/354 "2006-05-31T06:45:52Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] But why bring the 86 number into the discussion at all? What possible bearing does that have on my claim. [/QUOTE] Because this is an ongoing discussion across multiple threads. There is no reason to pretend that illegal aliens have caused the failure of any hospitals if you are not relying on the claims made in the other thread. If you have no evidence that hospitals have closed due to illegal alien usage, why mention it in this thread? Are you now claiming that you had no reason to bring up the topic? Or are you claiming that you have no memory of the discussion in the other thread? Do you know the meaning of the word perseveration? Because your attempt to distract from your begged question by continually attacking my single post with all the reasons you feel I should have posted differently is a pretty good example of perseveration. [QUOTE=randyjet] Since I am to my knowledge the only person posting who has lived on the border for many years, in Laredo and McAllen, Tx, I think I can speak more to the point about medical care there and the fact that illegals have created a major burden on the hospitals there. [/QUOTE] The plural of anecdote is not data. I would be surprised if illegal aliens, (who are generally poor), did not contribute to the burden that the poor place on hospitals. That was not the point of the discussion. According to you, your loyal citizen wife also contributed to the burden placed on the hospital system. I am sure that you feel that it was done in a good cause, (and I sincerely hope that your wife has fully recovered), but tales of Americans violating the rules of the system simply do not make a strong case that the system is failing due to the burden of other people. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/355 "2006-05-31T14:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Because this is an ongoing discussion across multiple threads. There is no reason to pretend that illegal aliens have caused the failure of any hospitals if you are not relying on the claims made in the other thread. If you have no evidence that hospitals have closed due to illegal alien usage, why mention it in this thread? Are you now claiming that you had no reason to bring up the topic? Or are you claiming that you have no memory of the discussion in the other thread? Do you know the meaning of the word perseveration? Because your attempt to distract from your begged question by continually attacking my single post with all the reasons you feel I should have posted differently is a pretty good example of perseveration. The plural of anecdote is not data. I would be surprised if illegal aliens, (who are generally poor), did not contribute to the burden that the poor place on hospitals. That was not the point of the discussion. According to you, your loyal citizen wife also contributed to the burden placed on the hospital system. I am sure that you feel that it was done in a good cause, (and I sincerely hope that your wife has fully recovered), but tales of Americans violating the rules of the system simply do not make a strong case that the system is failing due to the burden of other people. [/QUOTE] The very reason the doctor had to lie in order to get her the operation was that the system was overburdened with the illegals who were breaking not only policy which is what was violated in my wifes case, but they were breaking the law! I find it astounding that illegals dying in the desert who are breaking the laws are of concern, while you have equated that blatant illegal behavior with my wifes situation. She not only had a reasonable expectation of such care, but she had PAID for such care for others over the decades. I find it extremely racist that only illegals from south of the border are considered more valuable and worthy of help than those who have paid for such things. It is OK for the rest of us to pay for these services, and then when it is our turn for help to be told tough. I too am personally running into that with the VA since Bush has kicked me out of the system along with other vets who are of lower category than retirees and disabled vets. Well, I won’t have to worry about that any more since I am about to become a LEGAL immigrant and have a job overseas now. The Europeans won’t let me in to work even though they have few people in my field and particular expertise. ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/356 "2006-05-31T14:40:29Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Are we sure we can not even imagine some good reasons, like looking for a better future? I didn’t realize it was our job to make the entire world better on our money and at the expense of our own better future. I am sorry but I am not willing to sacrifice my family for the benefit of somebody who has less in some other country. You are free to give all your money away if you choose, but don’t expect me to support you. I sure don’t want to deny my wife health care in order to make sure that illegals who have contributed nothing get theirs. That is absurd and no country on earth does or will ever do that as policy. We are doing that now though. I already mentioned that on the border it is a serious problem, but on the whole it is a health care issue affecting all Americans, after seeing proponents of draconian measures like Tancredo and Sensenbrenner giving once again another tax cut to the well to do, they sure are not thinking on helping neither the illegals or the American uninsured. And IMHO they are are glad many Americans are not demanding better care since many have accepted the misleading idea that illegals are the cause of the problems. I am clinical enough to say that Tancredo and buddies also planned it that way. [/QUOTE] I think you meant cynical. IT is obvious to most people that health care is a major problem for all Americans. It is also true that such right wing nuts have no concern for that either. The solution is not to provide health care for the entire western hemisphere though. That will ensure that no health care plan gets enacted. So like Tancredo you too are making it less likely to solve that problem. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/357 "2006-05-31T14:47:00Z")
[QUOTE=randyjet] I find it extremely racist that only illegals from south of the border are considered more valuable and worthy of help than those who have paid for such things. [/QUOTE] And why is it rasict? Do you believe if our Canadian neighbours decided to run for the boarder, we would treat them differently because by and by, they’re not brown-skinned? Do you really believe on average, note I said on average, illegals are treated better and as if they’re more valuable and worthy of help than those who have paid? Is this _another_ of your false generalities? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/358 "2006-05-31T15:23:44Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Because this is an ongoing discussion across multiple threads. There is no reason to pretend that illegal aliens have caused the failure of any hospitals if you are not relying on the claims made in the other thread. If you have no evidence that hospitals have closed due to illegal alien usage, why mention it in this thread? [/QUOTE] Simple. As I already explained in a post or two back, I made what I thought, and think, was a logical assumption. At which point you were free to ask me to substantiate it. But you didn’t. You attacked and shot down a claim NOT made in my post and think, somehow, that it covers my post, as well. It doesn’t And when I’ve asked you—repeatedly—to connect the logical dots, you are unwilling (surprising, as this is a debate board) or unable (not surprising, as it can’t be done) to do so. Of course, I leave open the possibility of unwilling _and_ unable. [QUOTE=tomndebb] Are you now claiming that you had no reason to bring up the topic? Or are you claiming that you have no memory of the discussion in the other thread? [/QUOTE] I already explained why I brought it up, therefore I had a reason. Feel free to reread my past few posts. And of course I have a memory of the discussion in those other threads and the claims made. For you to ask that is ridiculous, as I have mentioned their contents (86 hospitals closing) in every post since yours that started this. I have explained the difference between the claims made in those other threads and the one I made in this thread and have been beating you about the head with it ever since. For naught, unfortunately. [QUOTE=tomndebb] Do you know the meaning of the word perseveration? Because your attempt to distract from your begged question by continually attacking my single post with all the reasons you feel I should have posted differently is a pretty good example of perseveration. [/QUOTE] Ha! You know, the longer this goes on, the more ridiculous, frustrating, and entertaining your responses. And the more obvious your attempts at obfuscation and redirection. _Yes, I have continued with the one point because you have not responded satifactorily, by either showing how what you did was logically sound or by admitting that it is not._ You have yet to connect the logical dots between the point you argued and the one you argued against. So I ask that of you AGAIN: please explain the logic behind your thinking. It seems on a debate board that one would feel duty-bound to explain the logic behind one’s posting. _Especially_ a mod. Oh well, I guess not… ---
**Author:** ![randyjet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@randyjet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randyjet)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/359 "2006-05-31T17:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=holmes] And why is it rasict? Do you believe if our Canadian neighbours decided to run for the boarder, we would treat them differently because by and by, they’re not brown-skinned? Do you really believe on average, note I said on average, illegals are treated better and as if they’re more valuable and worthy of help than those who have paid? Is this _another_ of your false generalities? [/QUOTE] The fact is that when you enforce the law more against one group of people rather than across the board or with less enforcement of those laws for another group, that is called racial profiling. Which is something that minorities are right to get upset about. When the illegals from Europe and other countries are not treated the same, then I call that discrimination since they cannot even get out of the airport. I would say it is non-discrimanatory if they would put those denied entrance to the US in a holding pen outside and let them hop the fence if they so choose. Or better yet, just give them a ticket for a court appearance as non-Mexican illegals get, and let them enter. It is rank discrimination when those illegally entering the border from the south are let go and given a ticket, while any other person trying to enter illegally through the airports are thrown in jail and deported straight away. As I pointed out, my wife was denied treatment in preference to the mass of indigents in the valley because of the lack of funds which were being spent treating illegals that absorded the bulk of the funds. Cut out all the illegals, and she would have gotten the treatment. As it was she had to leave her home to get treatment and live with her sister to be eligible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640/360 "2006-05-31T17:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=holmes] Do you believe if our Canadian neighbours decided to run for the boarder, we would treat them differently because by and by, they’re not brown-skinned? [/QUOTE] Don’t you? And don’t you believe we would treat them **better** than we do the Mexicans? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/time-for-the-fence-along-the-border/357640.md?page=19)